So can i say that you support tongues if they are actual languages spoken by human beings on earth and are interpreted at the time they are spoken?
So your not dismissing all tongues then.
I have discussed this with people who claim to speak in tongues and they claim that the tongues are not confined to human languages but are also Angle languages. I guess this is what your calling false.
Correct. What Charismatics call tongues today can be described as babble. None of them, that I've heard from, speak foreign unlearned languages like the Apostles did in acts. Corinthians 14 addresses tongues. You can read those verses as talking of babble
or foreign languages but either way Paul admonishes tongues if people cant understand them. Also he says it's a sign for unbelieving Jews which points to a verse in Isaiah, which talks of gentiles talking foreign languages to the Jews.
This talking gibberish thing has taken over many churches in almost all denominations. I think its important to make a stand and say that this thing is not something that Christians should be partaking in.
That's what i believe also.
Ok so we should be able to agree that we can examine various church practices and say that if it goes directly against scripture then theres every reason to call it demonic without being in fear of commiting the unpardonable sin. That only applies to the scripturally documented miracles of the Holy Ghost.
I believe it was to get peoples attention, so they could not ignore Jesus and the apostles as just another bunch of raving lunatics. But the proof has always been the message it'self.
Well, I think the proof NOW is the message becasue its backed by the complete cannon of scripture and 2000 years of church institutions. Back in the Apostolic era however the gifts were needed as a sign, like you say so the message could not be dismissed or ignored. Healing etc were always used to accompany evangelization of the Gospel.
Miracles were a sign of approval by God. A stamp of approval on the message.
2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man
approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs,
which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also
know:
4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will
not believe.
Well we must disagree then. I believe the man of sin will be given the power to do signs and wonders to ensure that those who hate the love of the truth will be deceived, believe the lie and be condemned, I believe that many of his followers will be able to do the same things.
Matthew 7
<SUP id=en-NKJV-23334>21</SUP> “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. <SUP id=en-NKJV-23335>22</SUP> Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ <SUP id=en-NKJV-23336>23</SUP> And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
These people obviously believe they have cast demons out of others in the Lord Jesus name, but Jesus tells them they are ones who practise lawlessness. These I believe are end times followers of the man of sin.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Ok no problem. But to me a 'lying wonder' has to mean a
counterfeit miracle. He does it with deceivableness in order to fool people into believing its real. False signs and wonders.
So to you 'lying wonder' means fooling people into believing the REAL miracle is from God and not from Satan?
I looked at a few commentaries from orthodox scholars on this:
Barnes Notes
And signs - This word frequently denotes real miracles, but not necessarily so. It
may be applied to pretended miracles as well as real, and is
undoubtedly so used here, as it is
connected with "lying wonders," and as it is said that the thing done would be "after the working of Satan."
And lying wonders - False or
pretended miracles. They would be such as would be
claimed to be miracles; such as would excite wonder; and
yet such as were false and delusive
Clarkes
With all power - Πασῃ δυναμει· All kinds of miracles,
like the Egyptian magicians; and signs and lying wonders: the word lying may be applied to the whole of these; they were
lying miracles, lying signs, and lying wonders;
only appearances of what was real, and done to give credit to his presumption and imposture. Whereas God sent his messengers with real miracles, real signs, and real wonders;
such Satan cannot produce.
Gills
and signs, and lying wonders; that is,
such signs and miracles as are not real, but reigned,
only in appearance, not in truth, like those that were done by the magicians of Egypt; and these were done to countenance lies, and to induce persons to believe them;
I did find one commentary that supports your position:
http://jfb.biblecommenter.com/2_thessalonians/2.htm
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
lying wonders-literally, "wonders" or "prodigies of falsehood." His "power, signs, and wonders," all have falsehood for their base, essence, and aim (Joh 8:44), [Alford]. In Mt 24:24
Jesus implies that the miracles shall be real, though demoniac, such mysterious effects of the powers of darkness as we read of in the case of the Egyptian sorcerers.
However, does Jesus imply they are real in Mt 24:24?
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible,
they shall deceive the very elect.
Hmmm...I'm not so sure.
And did the Egyptian sorcerers use actual demonic miracles or stage magic?
Doc.
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