Charismatics ARE Cessationists

[Adstar]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I guess in my mind at the moment the Jury is out in regard to wether the sings and wonders that shall be performed by the Son of perdition will be actual signs and wonders or elaborate fakes. But it seems clear to me that they will be so convincing either way that in a practical way they will be seen by anyone not guarded by the Holy Spirit as true signs. Everyone given over by God to that deception will have no chance.

So for me the safe stance is the Word of God. The message of God. That is the measure i will be using to see if someone doing signs and wonders is true to God and to be listed to.

The problem i see in your stance Doc is that trying to discern between true and false signs when signs will be so convincing that they would deceive even the elect, could well be a recipe for personal disaster.

Now you have made your reasons to reject a form of tongues that you see as unbiblical clear, but i have a feeling that the son of perdition will be able to do signs that you may not be able to declare false from your observation.

So i would encourage all to add the Word of God as a good measuring tool to their discernment tool kit. (i am sure you already do this) Not just replying on their ability to tell a false sign from a true Sign.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

I guess in my mind at the moment the Jury is out in regard to wether the sings and wonders that shall be performed by the Son of perdition will be actual signs and wonders or elaborate fakes. But it seems clear to me that they will be so convincing either way that in a practical way they will be seen by anyone not guarded by the Holy Spirit as true signs. Everyone given over by God to that deception will have no chance.

So for me the safe stance is the Word of God. The message of God. That is the measure i will be using to see if someone doing signs and wonders is true to God and to be listed to.

The problem i see in your stance Doc is that trying to discern between true and false signs when signs will be so convincing that they would deceive even the elect, could well be a recipe for personal disaster.

Now you have made your reasons to reject a form of tongues that you see as unbiblical clear, but i have a feeling that the son of perdition will be able to do signs that you may not be able to declare false from your observation.

So i would encourage all to add the Word of God as a good measuring tool to their discernment tool kit. (i am sure you already do this) Not just replying on their ability to tell a false sign from a true Sign.

Yeah obviously we use reality, our senses AND scripture to discern the true from the false. Back to the topic at hand, I'm saying we can use these things to understand that even Charismatics have to admit that the miraculous gifts utilized by the Apostles have ceased. We dont see them anymore and the stuff charismatics are doing in their churches doesn't line up with scriptural description of the gifts.

So the point of this thread is to say, we can critically examine certain church practices and make a statement about whether the things claiming to be done in Jesus name are genuine or if they are false USING SCRIPTURE. If they are genuine then we all need to become charismatics. If they are false then we need to shine a light on it to warn brethren to stay away. Because anything practiced in Jesus name in churches that is false can only come from one spirit. and that is Satan.

And we dont need to be scared away with the shadow of the unpardonable sin because it clearly doesnt apply here.

Doc.

 

[johnny botwright]

Jesus says he who believes on me , will do the things i do, and greater things he/she will do.

the world, darkness could not handle over come one Jesus, imagine if today their were one hundred like Jesus, tomorrow one thousand like Jesus, the next day one million like Jesus,

sons and daughters of the most high, i look to the hills from where does my help come from, my help comes from the Lord who made the heavens and earth,

and nothing nothing absolutley nothing is to difficult hard impossable for the LORD. Johnny

 

[Strangelove]

Jesus says he who believes on me , will do the things i do, and greater things he/she will do.

Indeed the Apostles did many miracles like Jesus did and even greater works than Jesus having brought multitudes from many nations to the sight of God whilst Jesus Himself was confined to those in Judea.

 

[johnny botwright]

i guess what im saying Doc, is what ever gift God has given you, keep spending it on this world, as we pass through, giving freely, jb

 

[whitney]

Jesus says he who believes on me , will do the things i do, and greater things he/she will do.

the world, darkness could not handle over come one Jesus, imagine if today their were one hundred like Jesus, tomorrow one thousand like Jesus, the next day one million like Jesus,

sons and daughters of the most high, i look to the hills from where does my help come from, my help comes from the Lord who made the heavens and earth,

and nothing nothing absolutley nothing is to difficult hard impossable for the LORD. Johnny

That's right Johnny, nothing is too difficult for the Lord! The gifts are for us today, praise God! He still continues to perform miracles today, if He turned water into wine back then, He can do it today, if He healed the blind then, He can do it now. Why wouldn't He?

 

[Alabaster]

That's right Johnny, nothing is too difficult for the Lord! The gifts are for us today, praise God! He still continues to perform miracles today, if He turned water into wine back then, He can do it today, if He healed the blind then, He can do it now. Why wouldn't He?

 

[Strangelove]

That's right Johnny, nothing is too difficult for the Lord! The gifts are for us today, praise God! He still continues to perform miracles today, if He turned water into wine back then, He can do it today, if He healed the blind then, He can do it now. Why wouldn't He?

But do Christians today posess the same gifts that the Apostles had? Or is there some form of cessasionism?

 

[Alabaster]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are at work now just as He was in the Apostles and the early churches. There has never been an end to any, nor will there be until Jesus Christ comes again. We won't need them then.

They are for the building of the Church, which is still an ongoing work of Jesus Christ in the earth. Why would they cease?

 

[Strangelove]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are at work now just as He was in the Apostles and the early churches.

Why dont we see the same gifts in operation today? The gifts as seen in Charismatic churches are not the same as those in the apostolic era. Do you agree or disagree?

There has never been an end to any, nor will there be until Jesus Christ comes again. We won't need them then.

They are for the building of the Church, which is still an ongoing work of Jesus Christ in the earth. Why would they cease?

Gifts were a sign to unbelievers. Why do charismatics use gifts as a sign to eachother? We dont need to have those miracles now because we have the full cannon of scripture and 2000 years of Christianity to lend legitamacy to the Gospel.

 

[Adstar]

<!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->

Yeah obviously we use reality, our senses AND scripture to discern the true from the false. Back to the topic at hand, I'm saying we can use these things to understand that even Charismatics have to admit that the miraculous gifts utilized by the Apostles have ceased. We dont see them anymore and the stuff charismatics are doing in their churches doesn't line up with scriptural description of the gifts.

So the point of this thread is to say, we can critically examine certain church practices and make a statement about whether the things claiming to be done in Jesus name are genuine or if they are false USING SCRIPTURE. If they are genuine then we all need to become charismatics. If they are false then we need to shine a light on it to warn brethren to stay away. Because anything practiced in Jesus name in churches that is false can only come from one spirit. and that is Satan.

And we dont need to be scared away with the shadow of the unpardonable sin because it clearly doesnt apply here.

Doc.

Well irrespective of the validity or otherwise of the type of tongues displayed by
charismatics it is stated in scriptures that not all speak in tongues not all prophecy not all have the gift of healing. But God gave different gifts to different Christians probably depending on need.

I have spoken to a pentecostal who told me that all people who receive the Holy Spirit speak in tongues and that i had never received the Holy Spirit because i did not speak in tongues. You can imagine my reaction to being told that. I put her straight using the Word of God and gave her church a wide berth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

<STYLE> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </STYLE><STYLE> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </STYLE>

I have spoken to a pentecostal who told me that all people who receive the Holy Spirit speak in tongues and that i had never received the Holy Spirit because i did not speak in tongues. You can imagine my reaction to being told that. I put her straight using the Word of God and gave her church a wide berth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Yes its a disturbing doctrine. Many Pente /Charis churches will have something like this in their statement of faith:

"We believe in the baptism in the Holy Spirit, as an enduement of the believer with power for service, the essential biblical evidence of which is the speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (Acts 1:4-5, 8, 2:4, 10:44-46, 11:14-16, 19:6)."

And by 'speaking in tongues' they mean babble.

 

[johnny botwright]

can a persons faith, make them well, do we come across people who would be happy to be prayed for, even ask to be prayed for, are there people we know who need our prayers, sick or tormented,

i come to set the captives free, are people still captive today?

love is the greatest gift, and our relationship with Jesus also our heavenly Father, the holy spirt, and with each other,

all men will know you are my disciples because of your love for one another, also being in the centre of Gods will,

ive seen things that where nothing more than fascade, and ive seen things done in Jesus name, that were in the right spirit, in love , people were moved, healed, delivered,

one of the nicest things i saw, was an ex police man, Fred lemon, i saw him pray as he felt moved to do for some people, later this little old lady came back to see him,

she had recieved her hearing, she had been deaf, i saw him say to her, quitely, thank God, go in peace, made no big show about it, it was a nice a moment.

for me its about being who you are, not trying to be some thing you are not, doing what you really feel led to do, at times comfortable to do, led by the spirit not by men, who to often try and do , only what the holy spirit can do.

which can put people under the wrong type of pressure, when people feel pushed and pulled even forced to do things, be some thing that they are not, all in the name of spirituality,

some thing to not only advoid, but not allow to happen to your self, be true to God and true to your self.

johnny

 

[whitney]

Why dont we see the same gifts in operation today? The gifts as seen in Charismatic churches are not the same as those in the apostolic era. Do you agree or disagree?

We do see the same gifts.

Gifts were a sign to unbelievers. Why do charismatics use gifts as a sign to eachother? We dont need to have those miracles now because we have the full cannon of scripture and 2000 years of Christianity to lend legitamacy to the Gospel.

Only speaking in tongues was for unbelievers.
1 Corinthians 14
<SUP>22</SUP> Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

Everything else is for believers.

We need miracles today because people are still sick. Why would God take away the gifts of His Spirit when the Spirit Himself lives in us?

 

[whitney]

But do Christians today posess the same gifts that the Apostles had? Or is there some form of cessasionism?

Yes, they are continued.

 

[Strangelove]

We do see the same gifts.

Do we see people who can peform INSTANT healings and 100% success record healing whole towns? Blind can see? Dead are raised?

Do we see people speaking unlearned Earthly languages evangelizing to the unsaved?

Do we see prophetic Revelation directly from God to man?

Only speaking in tongues was for unbelievers.

Everything else is for believers.

As far as I know, scripturally, miracles were always used to evangelize the Gospel to unbelievers. If you can find examples to the contrary I'd like to see.

We need miracles today because people are still sick.

Do unbelievers recover from sickness without miracles?

Do Christians in non Pentecostal/Charismatic churches who are cessationist revover from sickness without miracles and faith healing?

Why would God take away the gifts of His Spirit when the Spirit Himself lives in us?

We still have many gifts of the spirit. The question is are those gifts the same as those that the Apostles had?

Yes, they are continued.

The same gifts?

 

[whitney]

Do we see people who can peform INSTANT healings and 100% success record healing whole towns? Blind can see? Dead are raised?

Yes, there can be instant healings and some manifest later, Jesus did it all at the cross, He said it was finished.
Entire towns healed? Not sure, I think more miracles happen in the background versus in front of a camera.

Do we see people speaking unlearned Earthly languages evangelizing to the unsaved?

Yes, there have been Baptist preachers who have told me they have witnessed this outside of America. You can believe it or not.

Do we see prophetic Revelation directly from God to man?

The gift of prophecy is not the same as a Prophet. The gift of prophecy, and someone might correct me, is edifying, lifting up and giving direction to an individual.

As far as I know, scripturally, miracles were always used to evangelize the Gospel to unbelievers. If you can find examples to the contrary I'd like to see.

That could be a reason, but another reason is to actually heal the person who needed healing.

Do unbelievers recover from sickness without miracles?

Yes, but wouldn't you agree they need healing in unbelief MORE than in their illness?

Do Christians in non Pentecostal/Charismatic churches who are cessationist revover from sickness without miracles and faith healing?

They were already healed, it just needed to be manifested.

We still have many gifts of the spirit. The question is are those gifts the same as those that the Apostles had?



The same gifts?

YES!

 

[Strangelove]

Yes, there can be instant healings and some manifest later,

Entire towns healed? Not sure, I think more miracles happen in the background versus in front of a camera.

This is not how healing happened with the Apostles. Therefore it is not the same gift.

Cessation of Apostolic gift.

Jesus did it all at the cross, He said it was finished.

What are you referring to here?

Yes, there have been Baptist preachers who have told me they have witnessed this outside of America. You can believe it or not.

I'll take a raincheck.

How about the 'tongues' that most people practice in their faith? Unintelligable ecstatic utterances. Is that the same as what the Apostles did regarding the miracle of tongues? I'd say no it isn't.

Cessation of Apostolic gift.

The gift of prophecy is not the same as a Prophet. The gift of prophecy, and someone might correct me, is edifying, lifting up and giving direction to an individual.

Right so, the Apostles had prophetic miraculous revelation. Thats not around today.

Cessation of Apostolic gift.

That could be a reason, but another reason is to actually heal the person who needed healing.

If that was the reason why didnt Paul heal himself when he was sick?

Yes, but wouldn't you agree they need healing in unbelief MORE than in their illness?

Absolutely! Amen! This was always the purpose of miraculous healing in scripture. Ultimately...to bring belief and TO HEAL THE SOUL.

They were already healed, it just needed to be manifested.

Uhm...slightly cryptic. :

YES!

NO!

 

[Mike]

Is charismatics necessarily connected with spontaneous healings? I don't think so, but I'll listen to someone who says it is. I've always associated charismatics with extreme (not in a bad way) behavior while in worship. I'm not a charismatic BTW.

I heard someone say on the radio the other day, "Do you notice the reports of UFO sightings have decreased now that most people have phones with cameras and video?" Now, don't get me wrong. I believe healings happen, but I see a correlation with the amount of healings and supposed miracles decreasing. Again, I believe they happen and often go unreported. But the frauds who used shams to exploit their followers might be at a disadvantage with our modern technology.

 

[whitney]

Is charismatics necessarily connected with spontaneous healings? I don't think so, but I'll listen to someone who says it is. I've always associated charismatics with extreme (not in a bad way) behavior while in worship. I'm not a charismatic BTW.

I heard someone say on the radio the other day, "Do you notice the reports of UFO sightings have decreased now that most people have phones with cameras and video?" Now, don't get me wrong. I believe healings happen, but I see a correlation with the amount of healings and supposed miracles decreasing. Again, I believe they happen and often go unreported. But the frauds who used shams to exploit their followers might be at a disadvantage with our modern technology.

I can not disagree with your point about using frauds and shams to exploit their followers. There are miracles that happen in the background, in people's homes, private miracles not recorded. Everyone wants evidence of miracles, but yet they would not believe anyway, it's the same with the Israelites, they SAW with their own eyes, the miracles of God but still did not believe Him. If God can not even convince a person of miracles, than why would I be able to?
God bless you, Mike!