Bible Study Free will

[GodsGrace]

I know of people who have the "The KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."...and are not saved. This seems to contradict your statement that knowledge equals salvation.

Cygnus,
This is why exegesis is such a wonderful science.

I didn't say that KNOWLEDGE = SALVATION.

Satan has the knowledge of Jesus. Satan is NOT saved. As you know.

You're reading the English world "knowledge" and understanding it in the sense we understand it in our time and in our country.

This is why I asked you:
What do you suppose "knowledge" means?

The New Testament was written in Greek. So we have to understand what "knowledge" meant at that time, in the way that Peter ( The Apostle) used it in 2 Peter 2:20-22.
(the following is true for the Hebrew meaning of "knowledge" too)

Here's what it means:
Knowledge means to know something intimately, not only with the mind, but also with the heart. It means to know not only ABOUT something, but to accept it, to make it a part of ones self, to understand the workings of the object or concept which is known of. It means you acknowledge knowing what a concept means and ACCEPT it.
(this definition is mine but accurately explains the word. Please check it out for yourself).

What do you suppose it means in Genesis 4:1 where it states that Adam KNEW his wife?
Do you think it just means that they knew each other or could it mean more?

Please see Luke 1:34
"Then Mary said unto the angel: How shall this be, seeing I KNOW not a man?" KJV
Do you think it means she never spoke to a guy - or could it mean more?

It would help you to understand this.

Have you found any of Calvin's ideas in the early church yet??
Please ask yourself WHY.

Wondering

 

[Jim Parker]

Here's what it (knowledge) means:

According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
precise and correct knowledge
used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

Then look at what the rest of the passage says.

(RSV) Heb 6:4For it is impossible to restore again to repentance (1) those who have once been enlightened, (2)
who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, (3)
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, (4)
Heb 6:6 if they then commit apostasy, (5) since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

(1) You cannot "restore" someone to repentance unless he has already been repentant.
(2) The word "enlightened" is the 1st century term meaning "saved."
(3) A person only becomes a partaker of the Holy Spirit if he is saved.;
(4) The powers of the age to come are the charismatic gifts which the Holy Spirit gives to BELIEVERS. (Not to pretend believers.)
(5) A person cannot commit apostasy unless he is first a believer.

The rest of the passage CONFIRMS that knowledge equals salvation.

And I'd like to see your responses to w's points:
"You still haven't given me any proof that the idea of OSAS was in Christian doctrine BEFORE J. Calvin proclaimed it. That means Christianity had NO concept of Calvin's ideas for 1,500 years. Does that seem reasonable to you?

It can be shown from church writers that every important doctrine existed in the early years and that all doctrine was established by about the 300's.

Please show how J.C.'s concept was even considered back then. Please remember that these early theologians and church fathers were close (in time) to the apostles. For example, St. Ignatius of Antioch knew the Apostle John personally and studied with him."

DUH!!!
I quoted the wrong passage!
But I'm feeling better now.

 

[GodsGrace]

According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
precise and correct knowledge
used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

DUH!!!
I quoted the wrong passage!
But I'm feeling better now.

Hey Jim Parker

There is no "wrong" passage.

They're ALL good!
It still spoke of restoration which means "being brought back to".
The poster should ask himself: Be brought back from where ?

Take care
W

 

[Cygnus]

(2) The word "enlightened" is the 1st century term meaning "saved."

I checked it out and found your reply....incorrect.

Word Origin
from phós
Definition
to shine, give light
NASB Translation
bring to light (2), brought (1), enlightened (3), enlightens (1), illumine (1), illumined (2), illumines (1), light (1).

You can see the reference here.

 

[Jim Parker]

I checked it out and found your reply....incorrect.
Word Origin - from phós
Definition - to shine, give light
NASB Translation - bring to light (2), brought (1), enlightened (3), enlightens (1), illumine (1), illumined (2), illumines (1), light (1).
You can see the reference here.

From the part of your reference which you neglected to read:
c. by a use only Biblical and ecclesiastical, to enlighten spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge: τινα, John 1:9; with a saving knowledge of the gospel: hence, φωτισθέντες of those who have been made Christians, Hebrews 6:4; Hebrews 10:32;

 

[Malachi]

So, either you found a contradiction in the book of Romans...or you are interpreting it wrong.

No contradiction whatsoever. God clearly says that He will have mercy upon all. But there are conditions. Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

In the case of Esau, there was no genuine repentance, and his life and the history of Edom confirm that. Please note (Heb 11:16,17):Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[Cygnus]

From the part of your reference which you neglected to read:
c. by a use only Biblical and ecclesiastical, to enlighten spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge: τινα, John 1:9; with a saving knowledge of the gospel: hence, φωτισθέντες of those who have been made Christians, Hebrews 6:4; Hebrews 10:32;

Jim, I looked the word up in a biblical dictionary. You're still off mark.

John 1:9 presented above says...9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.....every man isn't saved. This clearly shows enlightened doesn't mean saved. So far you're unconvincing.

 

[Cygnus]

No contradiction whatsoever. God clearly says that He will have mercy upon all. But there are conditions. Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

In the case of Esau, there was no genuine repentance, and his life and the history of Edom confirm that. Please note (Heb 11:16,17):Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Romans 9 tells us Esau...the twin...wasn't saved. For some reason prior to Esau being born...God decided not to have mercy on him.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim, I looked the word up in a biblical dictionary. You're still off mark.

I quoted the reference that you cited in your post #284.
Why not go back and read the rest of the reference YOU gave me? It's a little ways down the page from the first thing you ran into.
Here, I'll do it for you. (again) Here's what it said: (My emphasis)
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5461: φωτίζω
1 c. by a use only Biblical and ecclesiastical, to enlighten spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge: τινα, John 1:9; with a saving knowledge of the gospel: hence, φωτισθέντες of those who have been made Christians, Hebrews 6:4; Hebrews 10:32; followed by an indirect question Ephesians 3:9 (see b. above) (Sir. 45:17; for הֵאִיר, Psalm 118:130 (; for הורָה, to instruct, inform, teach, Judges 13:8, Alex.; 2 Kings 12:2; φωτιοῦσιν αὐτούς τό κρίμα τοῦ Θεοῦ τῆς γῆς, 2 Kings 17:27 (cf. 1 Kings 17:28; others)); to give understanding to: πεφωτίσμενοι τούς ὀφθαλμούς τῆς καρδίας (Rec. διανοίας), as respects the eyes of your soul, Ephesians 1:18 (Buttmann § 145, 6); ((cf. Sir. 31:20 (Sir. 34:20), etc.)).

So, unless you know more about Koine Greek than, Thayer, you're dead wrong.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim, I looked the word up in a biblical dictionary. You're still off mark.

I quoted the reference that you cited in your post #284.
Why not go back and read the rest of the reference YOU gave me? It's a little ways down the page from the first thing you ran into.
Here, I'll do it for you. (again) Here's what it said: (My emphasis)
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5461: φωτίζω
1 c. by a use only Biblical and ecclesiastical, to enlighten spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge: τινα, John 1:9; with a saving knowledge of the gospel: hence, φωτισθέντες of those who have been made Christians, Hebrews 6:4; Hebrews 10:32; followed by an indirect question Ephesians 3:9 (see b. above) (Sir. 45:17; for הֵאִיר, Psalm 118:130 (; for הורָה, to instruct, inform, teach, Judges 13:8, Alex.; 2 Kings 12:2; φωτιοῦσιν αὐτούς τό κρίμα τοῦ Θεοῦ τῆς γῆς, 2 Kings 17:27 (cf. 1 Kings 17:28; others)); to give understanding to: πεφωτίσμενοι τούς ὀφθαλμούς τῆς καρδίας (Rec. διανοίας), as respects the eyes of your soul, Ephesians 1:18 (Buttmann § 145, 6); ((cf. Sir. 31:20 (Sir. 34:20), etc.)).

So, unless you know more about Koine Greek than Thayer, (snowball's chance in Hades of that ever happening) you're dead wrong.

 

[Jim Parker]

For some reason prior to Esau being born...God decided not to have mercy on him.

Nonsense.
God did not decide not to have mercy on Esau. Esau wasn't interested. And; You don't ask; you don't get. (James 4:2)
In fact, Esau despised the gift of God. (Gen 25:34)
God knew that. ('cause God knows everything)
God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him, to love him, to serve Him, to follow Him, etc.
In fact, God did have mercy on Esau. Esau lived a long time and prospered. God could have killed him at any time but, in His mercy, He gave Esau long life to see the blessings of serving God as exemplified by his brother, Jacob.

 

[Cygnus]

Nonsense.
God did not decide not to have mercy on Esau. Esau wasn't interested. And; You don't ask; you don't get. (James 4:2)
In fact, Esau despised the gift of God. (Gen 25:34)
God knew that. ('cause God knows everything)
God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him, to love him, to serve Him, to follow Him, etc.
In fact, God did have mercy on Esau. Esau lived a long time and prospered. God could have killed him at any time but, in His mercy, He gave Esau long life to see the blessings of serving God as exemplified by his brother, Jacob.

I'm just presenting what the bible says about Esau. Before being born...God decided.

 

[Jim Parker]

Before being born...God decided.

Where in scripture does it say that?
I see where God said that the older will serve the younger but not that He would not have mercy on Esau even before he was born.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Where in scripture does it say that?
I see where God said that the older will serve the younger but not that He would not have mercy on Esau even before he was born.

Jim,
You are fighting the good fight but so much of this Five Point Hyper Calvinism, a.k.a. TULIP, is resident in so many people's Personal Theology because they have never realized, just, what the Omnipotent, Omnipresent God is about. they, mistakenly, take God's theology of Predestination to define God as a mean capricious, even psychopathic being that creates most of the people He create to go to the Lake of Fire for no other purpose than to suffer... as if that please our Creator God.

I have even had some call me stupid when I explain to them that they must cease to cast certain type of scriptures into file thirteen and to begin to work them into their understanding of god to begin to correct their theology. Scriptures such as where we learn it is the Perfect will of God that none should perish but that they should repent and go to Heaven to live eternity with Him.

i.e. In Esau's case. Before Esau and Jacob/Israel were born God had written their complete life accounts into the books because He had already witnessed their entire lives. I know, zoo da zoo da zoo da! But the truth of the matter is that from the Spirit Realm, God created this Space/Time Continuum specifically for His Crown Jewel, People, to live in and none of this contains nor does it restrict us Him as it does us. That leaves God outside our Continuum moving freely from the past to the present to the future as He wills it.

And if anyone can wrap their head around that truth enough to, properly, teach that in a manor every man can understand it to be truth, please, teach it to me. So it is after my two and a half decades of Holy Spirit led study, I believe this on the gift of Faith I have received from God.May God bless your efforts here.

 

[Jim Parker]

they, mistakenly, take God's theology of Predestination to define God as a mean capricious, even psychopathic being that creates most of the people He create to go to the Lake of Fire for no other purpose than to suffer... as if that please our Creator God.

It is beyond my understanding how people don't get that when they insist on then popular version of predestination.
According to what people have posted;
(1) No one has free will.
(2) Everyone is totally corrupt, is only capable of doing evil. and completely unable to repent unless God, through the Holy Spirit, chooses to enable them to repent.
(3) God doesn't give everyone the ability to repent, just His, "elect." (The ones He "elected.")
(4) Those who repent go to heaven; those who don't (can't) go to hell.

That means that God punishes people with eternal fire because they didn't do what was totally impossible for them to do.

And God inflicts this punishment upon people even though it is GOD's choice to leave them in their spiritually crippled state, not theirs. They don't have a choice. But God DOES have a choice; He can enable all of mankind to repent and be saved. IT's as if mankind has been per-programmed to do evil and God, the infinite IT tech, can down load the software to reprogram people to do good. But He only does it for a few people and never tells anyone why He fixes some and not all when He could fix everyone with a a single word. "Reboot"

That's like God condemning a paralyzed man to hell because he can't walk when it is 100% within God's power to heal him.
So, yeah, to me, that appears to portray God as some kind of psycho-nut-case who enjoys torturing innocent people by setting them on fire forever.

And, yes, they are INNOCENT, because, unless you have free will to do good or to do evil, you are not responsible for anything you do. That's why the law allows an insanity defense.

So the combination of double-predestination, no free will, and an omnipotent God who picks and chooses for no apparent reason, is enough to keep unbelievers as far away from Jesus as possible.

IMHO
iakov the fool

 

[th1b.taylor]

It is beyond my understanding how people don't get that when they insist on then popular version of predestination.
According to what people have posted;
(1) No one has free will.
(2) Everyone is totally corrupt, is only capable of doing evil. and completely unable to repent unless God, through the Holy Spirit, chooses to enable them to repent.
(3) God doesn't give everyone the ability to repent, just His, "elect." (The ones He "elected.")
(4) Those who repent go to heaven; those who don't (can't) go to hell.

That means that God punishes people with eternal fire because they didn't do what was totally impossible for them to do.

And God inflicts this punishment upon people even though it is GOD's choice to leave them in their spiritually crippled state, not theirs. They don't have a choice. But God DOES have a choice; He can enable all of mankind to repent and be saved. IT's as if mankind has been per-programmed to do evil and God, the infinite IT tech, can down load the software to reprogram people to do good. But He only does it for a few people and never tells anyone why He fixes some and not all when He could fix everyone with a a single word. "Reboot"

That's like God condemning a paralyzed man to hell because he can't walk when it is 100% within God's power to heal him.
So, yeah, to me, that appears to portray God as some kind of psycho-nut-case who enjoys torturing innocent people by setting them on fire forever.

And, yes, they are INNOCENT, because, unless you have free will to do good or to do evil, you are not responsible for anything you do. That's why the law allows an insanity defense.

So the combination of double-predestination, no free will, and an omnipotent God who picks and chooses for no apparent reason, is enough to keep unbelievers as far away from Jesus as possible.

IMHO
iakov the fool

You might have a better grasp on this than I do and that makes you, one rare bird indeed. Praying for God's blessing on your efforts.

 

[Cygnus]

Jim,
You are fighting the good fight but so much of this Five Point Hyper Calvinism, a.k.a. TULIP, is resident in so many people's Personal Theology because they have never realized, just, what the Omnipotent, Omnipresent God is about. they, mistakenly, take God's theology of Predestination to define God as a mean capricious, even psychopathic being that creates most of the people He create to go to the Lake of Fire for no other purpose than to suffer... as if that please our Creator God.

I have even had some call me stupid when I explain to them that they must cease to cast certain type of scriptures into file thirteen and to begin to work them into their understanding of god to begin to correct their theology. Scriptures such as where we learn it is the Perfect will of God that none should perish but that they should repent and go to Heaven to live eternity with Him.

i.e. In Esau's case. Before Esau and Jacob/Israel were born God had written their complete life accounts into the books because He had already witnessed their entire lives. I know, zoo da zoo da zoo da! But the truth of the matter is that from the Spirit Realm, God created this Space/Time Continuum specifically for His Crown Jewel, People, to live in and none of this contains nor does it restrict us Him as it does us. That leaves God outside our Continuum moving freely from the past to the present to the future as He wills it.

And if anyone can wrap their head around that truth enough to, properly, teach that in a manor every man can understand it to be truth, please, teach it to me. So it is after my two and a half decades of Holy Spirit led study, I believe this on the gift of Faith I have received from God.May God bless your efforts here.

You're argument still fails to answer the question....why would a person not "choose" Jesus? I would say the answer is because of their life experiences. Some where life convinced them they don't need Jesus. What does this mean? It means your choice of receiving Jesus is based upon life's happenstance. You may have been fortunate enough to hear a great preacher..while another didn't. Does it seem right that God would save you just because you got lucky and someone else didn't? Do you honestly think your salvation is based upon the filter you developed during life?

Concerning going to the lake of fire....do we not ALL deserve the lake of fire?

 

[Jim Parker]

You're argument still fails to answer the question....why would a person not "choose" Jesus?

Because "choosing Jesus" requires relinquishing your will (driven by the lusts of the flesh for self gratification) and submitting to God's will.
Because, after a lifetime of commitment to doing whatever I felt like doing whenever and wheresoever I felt like it, it is a radical change to leave all that behind (and my rowdy friends too.)

Does it seem right that God would save you just because you got lucky and someone else didn't?

If that's a problem for you then go preach the gospel or support a missionary who's good at it.
Meanwhile, BE a LIVING Gospel and the unsaved will see your good works and praise God in heaven. The unsaved will come to your light and ask about Jesus.
Does it seem right that God would condemn people to hell for not doing what they are incapable of doing when it is God who made them incapable?

 

[Cygnus]

Does it seem right that God would condemn people to hell for not doing what they are incapable of doing when it is God who made them incapable?

Just where does the bible say HE made people incapable? You make it sound as if God causes us to sin.

 

[Jim Parker]

Just where does the bible say HE made people incapable? You make it sound as if God causes us to sin.

That's my whole point.

The Bible most certainly does NOT say that God made them incapable.
That WOULD mean that God causes man to sin and then punishes them for sinning.
That would make God a very big jerk. I don't think that's accurate.

That idea is absurd! But that seems to be the strain of pop Calvinism I see bandied about in many Christian forums.
They tell me that God is completely sovereign and man has no free will to choose anything. (Like repenting and seeking God)
They insist that a mankind is totally depraved and can do nothing good. (And even if he does something good, it's not really good.)
They assure me that God picks a few people (apparently at random) and reprograms them to do good and to love him. (The few who are saved from damnation have no part in the process, they just do as they are programmed to do.)
I am assured that God throws the rest of the un-re-programmed (unregenerate) people into hell and where He "righteously" burns them for all eternity because they sinned just like He forced them to do and they deserve it.
(If this "god" were in a movie, Gary Busey would play him.)

Does THAT sound to you like the God of the Bible who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son to be horribly brutalized and murdered in the most hideous manner possible so that all mankind could be freed from the grave and the gates of paradise be flung open to whoever would believe?

Doesn't sound like the God of the Bible to me either.

The God I discern in scripture would do, has done and continues to do everything possible to make eternal life to anyone who will receive it because He loves mankind and wants intimate communion with all of us.

iakov the fool





By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result from said reading. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your life.