Give us your absolute bottom-line Christian essentials

Discussion in 'Apologetics' started by Runner, Sep 11, 2017.

  1. wondering

    wondering Member

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    PART THREE of three

    POLYCARP (65 - 155/6 A.D.)

    Polycarp was Overseer of Bishop of Smyrna. His own statement that he had served the Lord for 86 years indicates that he was a Christian from his childhood. It is known that he was a close associate of the Apostle John and was mentioned in the writings of Ireneaus as having been appointed by the apostles as Bishop of Smyrna (most likely John).

    Towards the close of his life Polycarp visited Rome to discuss important church matters with Anicetus, Bishop of Rome. There was a controversy over which date should be kept to remember Christ's death. The Roman church was keeping one appointed Sunday per year, whereas the Eastern churches were actually keeping the Passover day. While neither agreed to change, there was no break in fellowship and before leaving Rome, Polycarp celebrated the Communion meal with them as was their custom as the weekly meeting. They separated in agreement that each would keep to their own traditions. They both took to heart the words of Paul in Col 2:16 and Romans 14.

    This letter was written to the church at Philomelium about how their beloved Polycarp was arrested, tried and martyred.

    THE MARTYRDOM OF POLYCARP

    "What harm is there to say 'Lord Caesar' and to offer incense and all that sort of thing, and to same yourself?.....I shall have you consumed with fire, if you despise the wild beasts, unless you change your mind'.

    But Polycarp said: 'The fire you threaten burns but an hour and is quenched after a little; for you do not know the fire of the coming judgement and everlasting punishment that is laid up for the impious. But why do you delay? Come, do what you will......."

    "They do not know that we can never forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of the whole world of those who are saved, the faultless for the sinners, nor can we ever worship any other. For we worship this One as Son of God....."

    Polycarp, a first generation Christian, and a disciple of the Apostle John,

    believed that it was perfectly scriptural to worship the Lord Jesus Christ.

    CLEMENT (Written about 96 A.D.)

    Clement was Overseer of Bishop of Rome at the time of writing his letter. For many years the letter was so highly esteemed that it was reckoned as part of the canon (New Testament) in Egypt and Syria and was read publicly in the Corinthian Church on Sundays (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. IV, 23:11). It formed part of the Codex Alexandrinus (one of the ancient Biblical Greek texts).

    Clement is mention in the writings of Ireneaus (quoted later in this chapter) as having been the third Overseer of Rome, having been appointed by Linus (second overseer), who in turn had been appointed by Paul.

    In this letter we find Clement talking about the apostles Peter and Paul

    receiving their reward upon their death.

    TO THE CHURCH IN CORINTH

    "Peter, ........bearing his witness, went to the glorious place which he merited. .....Paul showed how to win the prize for patient endurence...And so, released from this world, he was taken up into the holy place and became the greatest example of patient endurence."

    Here Clement is speaking about how Peter and Paul were martyred for their faith and taken immediately into the "glorious place" and the "holy place". This indicates that Christians living in John the Apostle's lifetime believed that there was continuing existence after death. This is NOT negating the resurrection of the physical body, which all Christians now and then, believed would occur at the second coming of Christ.

    IRENAEUS - (c. 130 - 200 A.D.)

    Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp in his youth and was appointed Overseer or Bishop of Lyons. It was his generation of Christians who were to take the stand for the faith against heresy. His works are one of the first in-depth discussion of doctrine which were designed to refute heresy. It was during his lifetime that Justin and Athenagoras wrote their explanations of Christian beliefs. Justin wrote his to a Jew; Athenagoras to the Emporer of Rome.

    Irenaeus, in his refutation of heresy, went so far as to even name the Overseers or Bishops in the various churches in their line of succession from the apostles. Christians were warned not to follow the doctrines of anyone who did not sit under the teachings of these men. As he points out, it was to these men the truths taught by the Apostles were handed down, and it was these men who were the keepers of the letters written by the apostles.

    IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES


    THE NAME OF GOD

    "The name of God or Lord is given only to him who is God and Lord of all; who said to Moses 'My name is I AM. And you shall say to the Israelites, 'HE WHO IS has sent me to you' The name of God and Lord is given also to His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who makes men the sons of God if they believe in his name. And the Son said to Moses, 'I have come down to rescue this people'. For it is the Son who descended and ascended for the salvation of men. Thus through the Son who is in the Father, and has the Father in Himself, HE WHO IS has been revealed. The Father bears witness to the Son; The Son proclaims the Father. So Isaiah says, 'I am witness says the Lord God, and so is the child whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe and understand that I AM.`"

    "Since, therefore, the Father is truly LORD, and the Son truly LORD, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them both by the title LORD.....And this (test following) does declare that same truth; 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The sceptre of your kingdom is a right sceptre. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity: Therefore, God, your God, has anointed you.' For the Spirit designated both (of them) by the name of God - both him who is designated as Son and him who does anoint, that is the Father."

    Ireneaus is teaching that the Father and the Son have the same name, HE WHO IS or YHWH, and that it was the Son who was the complete revelation of God to man.

     
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  2. wondering

    wondering Member

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    WHAT DOES BEGOTTEN MEAN?

    *****************************************************

    What does 'only begotten Son' mean?
    How is Jesus God's only begotten Son?

    John 3:16 teaches that Jesus is God's "only begotten Son" (King James Version). What does this mean?

    The Greek term translated "only begotten" is monogenes, a word used nine times in the New Testament that can mean one of a kind or unique. For example, Luke uses the term three times to refer to an only child (Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38). The writer of Hebrews uses the term to refer to Isaac, the only son of Abraham and Sarah, the son of the promise (Hebrews 11:17). Modern translations generally translate monogenes in John 3:16 as "one and only Son" or "only Son" to reflect this definition.

    But does this mean Jesus was somehow born or created by God the Father? It does not. Instead, the emphasis is on Jesus as one in unique relationship with the Father. The Bible often uses Father and Son with God and Jesus to explain their relationship in terms we can better understand as humans, but this does not mean Jesus was created by God the Father.

    Other passages in the Bible make this very clear. For example, John 1:1-3 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." Colossians 1:15-17 also emphasizes Jesus creating all things.

    The use of monogenes in John 3:16 is similar to what is seen in other passages of Scripture to refer to Jesus as unique. For example, John 1:14 shares, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:18 includes, "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." John 3:18 adds, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." First John 4:9 notes, "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."

    The understanding that Jesus is completely unique, yet not a created being, was so important in the early church that it was emphasized in one of the earliest creeds, the Nicene Creed: "I believe...in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made." This statement sought to make clear that Jesus is both eternal and is the one and only Son of God sent to offer salvation to the world.


    Source:
    https://www.compellingtruth.org/only-begotten-son.html
     
  3. wondering

    wondering Member

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    The Father sent Jesus to atone for sin. In a way, the Father sent Himself.
    The Son is a part of the Father and cannot be separated. The Godhead is not three different and distinct persons in the way that you understand it. The way you put this, it seems that there are three Gods.

    We live because we feed on Jesus BECAUSE HE IS God. Otherwise, we would have to feed on the Father. If you can accept the Trinity, this becomes much easier to understand.

    Your last sentence is referring to 1 Peter 3:18.
    What is your intent?
    He was put to death bodily and then made alive.
    Just as we will be.
    Jesus conquered death.
    We will always be alive in the spirit until the resurrection when we also will have a body. Is this something you feel we must believe to be considered Christian?


    John 1:1 is consistent with who Jesus is, but is not consistent with what you believe. He was at the beginning of creation? What does that mean?
    Jesus, as the 2nd person of the Trinity, had no beginning and was always God and in God and with God. In what context? There is no context. The fullness dwelt in Him and He dwelt in the fullness. Still sounds to me like Jesus is a 2nd God.

    Jesus is a living being. Jesus was fully God and fully man.
    Jesus in not a word? This shows me that you don't understand what THE WORD means.
    You said you believe in John 1:1 --- so what does it mean to you that the word was with God and the word was God?
    Father was not in the Son doing His work.
    The Son was in the Father.
    But the Father was also in the Son.
    IT'S THE SAME GOD.

    Sure. While He was on earth and a living human person.
    This would have to do with order.
    The Father
    The Son
    The Holy Spirit

    The Son is in the Father.
    The Holy Spirit proceeds out of the Father and Son.
    They are each a distinct person but in God.
    They each have their own attributes, although shared by all.
    They have an order, as stated above.

    Because Jesus, as the man, was committing His spirit into the hands of Father who was in heaven. And as God He was offering Himself as a sacrifice for us.

    There's a lot written on this. Here's just one. You could find a lot more if you cared to understand this better:

    **********************************************************************************
    “Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice” — now that's an interesting detail that Luke would draw attention to. He didn't just whisper it, He said it loudly. There's a reason. What did He say? “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” He's quoting Scripture and the scripture is from the Psalms. It's Psalm 31 verse 5. Go ahead and turn there. And then he says, “And having said this, He breathed His last.” Now each of those three things are very significant because what is Jesus doing here? Jesus is saying the words of committal at His own funeral. You know when you go to a graveside service, one of the things that the minister will usually do is give the words of committal — “Ashes to ashes; dust to dust. Here, we commit the body of our dear brother or sister, departed to the ground in the hope of the resurrection to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” It's a standard part of a Christian graveside service, the words of committal. Well Jesus, in this verse, is saying the words of committal at His own graveside service and it's very, very significant because what He is expressing here is that He is willingly and authoritatively laying down His life for us. Nobody's taking His life from Him against His will. He is laying it down of His own will and by His own authority and no power on this earth could take His life from Him if He did not want to give His life! So He says it with how? “A loud voice.” Now if you have been on a cross being crucified for the day, you’re weary. You are in agony. You are more apt to whisper through your parched throat some words. But not Jesus. He speaks loudly. He's in control to the very end.



    He quotes Scripture. There's a lesson for us, isn't it, even in the hour of death. He quotes Scripture and He quotes from Psalm 31. I asked you to turn there so look at those words. The psalmist prays, “Into Your hands I commit my spirit; You have redeemed me, O LORD, faithful God.” Now I want you to notice three things. First of all, the psalmist here speaks in this prayer of the Lord having redeemed him. Jesus doesn't quote that as He says this. Why? Because He's not being redeemed; He's redeeming you. On the cross, that's what He's doing. He's redeeming you. He was the substitute in order that you would be bought back and redeemed.

    source:
    https://www.fpcjackson.org/resource-library/sermons/father-into-your-hands-i-commit-my-spirit

    ***************************************************************************
    To be a follower of Christ is to be saved and born from above.
    But if Christianity states that Jesus is God, aren't you obliged to at least try to understand this?
    The rules for Christianity have already been established.
    If we all could change the rules to suit what we personally believe, is there a danger in this?
    I believe so.
     
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  4. wondering

    wondering Member

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    :clap
     
  5. Randy

    Randy Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
    I so understand who Jesus is. He has always been the Son. And the Son who was (his spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him as Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit.
    MY intent with 1 peter 3:8 was to show a Jesus who was alive prior to the resurrection that is He never dies .
    I understand what 1 john means Jesus was with God at the beginning of the creation.
    Hebrews 1:10 supports such a beginning about the Son. In the beginning you laid the foundations of the world. Genesis IN the beginning..
    And per Jesus it was the Father living in Him doing His work. John 14:10 Hebrews 1:1
    And I know Jesus is a living being a person NOT a word.
    as I stated Jesus has his own spirit vs the spirit of God which the Father states is His spirit IF i were to believe Jesus always was and always was God that would be two Gods.
    While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
    Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
    In regard to the Father in the Son The Father gave the gift of oneness just as Jesus and the believer are one,
    John 17 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one-- I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me

    I stated John 1:1 was consistent with what I believe about the Son. He was with God in the beginning of the creation. The creation was made through Him. and Jesus is All that the Father is. Because the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. Not because He always was.

    And as I asked you before If Jesus has a human spirit or spirit of a man and a human body what part of HIM was God? The miracles were performed by the Holy Spirit at Jesus's will as Jesus had been given such authority from God. The Father.

    The fullness in the Son is the Father. Not another God they are One as Jesus taught. BUT as the Son Jesus has his own spirit.
     
  6. brujaq

    brujaq Member

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    I agree, Jesus is the human edition of the unseen Father God . Jesus existed as the Word of God until the Word was made flesh but yet Gods Word remains with him from everlasting to everlasting . What part of him was God ? All of him . What part was man ? All of him . The Spirit is subject to the prophet and the prophet is unobstructed by sinlessness but the Word sent forth will not return void .Jesus being God kept a perfect relationship with his father in heaven though he was also son of man . Jesus word did not return void because he spoke what he heard his father speak and was written . Adam was created to commune with God but failed, Jesus/Emmanuel was begotten of God and didn't/couldn't fail . But did Jesus the man become from the everlasting to the everlasting at his resurrection then being no longer restrained by time and existing at the Beginning to the End, the Alpha and Omega ? Things I think about .. Same as those waiting in paradise . They were waiting for the Messiah, the atonement, the event horizon for mankind and creation closing the old and beginning the new covenant age. The thief on the cross met Jesus in Paradise that day, the Earthquake at Jesus death OT saints come out of their graves and were seen in the streets of Jerusalem . Yet since then we sleep in our graves waiting on Jesus return to be transformed to become like him . The Beginning of time, the End of time but existence eternal . There is one Way , one Gate to enter in .. All other ways are guarded from entry by a Cherubim with a flashing sword ..
    God the Father
    God the Son
    God the Holy Spirit All one God
    Jesus physical death was horrible enough, but he cried out my God, my God why have you forsaken me . it is written who ever is hung on a tree is accursed by God . Jesus was guilty of our sin, not his . He was promptly judged and found not guilty . He won victory and beat death and hell for us to become Lord over all . And somehow he reached down and pulled my filthy butt out, did you hear me ? He did it for my ungrateful butt and I owe him nothing . What a mighty God we serve !!! Jesus came as a Lamb but he will return as the Lion of the tribe of Judah . God bless Israel and America ..
     
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  7. Randy

    Randy Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
    The word was made flesh=>The Son that was (a living being and person)that was (his spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for him
    Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
     
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  8. brujaq

    brujaq Member

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    And also a son of King David in the flesh
     
  9. Randy

    Randy Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
    The Father by His own authority appoints His firstborn to the line of David as Jesus is the Son of God not the Son of Joseph.Jesus ,Gods Christ, is the most exalted. He will rule the nations with an iron scepter.
    Psalm 89:27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

    Whose Son is the Christ?
    While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42“What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
    “The son of David,” they replied.
    43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
    44“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    until I put your enemies
    under your feet.” ’e
    45If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
     
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  10. brujaq

    brujaq Member

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    You don't think David knew Jesus was both his son and Lord ?
     
  11. wondering

    wondering Member

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    Jesus is a king
    A prophet
    A priest
     
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  12. Randy

    Randy Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
    Not based off Jesus's teaching -No
    I think a "Father" was always considered the greater in a family unit than his own Son. Hence "If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” The blessing went from Father to Son. The one who blessed is greater than the one blessed.
    "honor your father and mother"
     
  13. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Christian:
    Yes

    Of course we worship Jesus, as He is the Lord God, YHWH, our Savior, the only begotten Son of God the Father.


    Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1
    • our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

    • our great God and Savior Jesus Christ




    Is someone on this thread, claiming that Jesus is not the Lord God?



    JLB
     
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  14. brujaq

    brujaq Member

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    Of course Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin which proves the Holy Spirit is God . The only begotten of God the Father which makes one God . The Father, Son and Holy Ghost . Jesus knew who he was and where he come from . Jesus also was the Son of the virgin who was from the direct line of King David and his legal but not biological father Joseph ... Jesus genealogy is listed back to King David both through both Mary and Joseph (again his legal but not biological father) . Their firstborn but as Josephs adopted son he received the inheritance of a first born and was first born . Jesus inherited both the Kingly and Priestly line from King David in the flesh and also was God in the flesh but without the curse of sin that comes from Adam . Amazing !!!
     
  15. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Christian:
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    He was thne only begotten Son, before He became flesh, as He created the heavens and the earth.


    Kind begets after it's own kind.

    God begets God.
    Man begets man.




    JLB
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
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  16. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Randy is confused as to who Jesus (that is, The Son of God who became flesh) is/was/became:

    For some reason, it seems confusing to people that God could be the Father yet somehow not the Son. Probably because there are so many 'so called' gods that are false gods (like Caesars, Zeus, Pharaohs, etc.) that are not three persons in One.

    mono-genos DOES NOT mean first born. It means Only-begotten, only-family, only-kind, i.e. unique.
    Word Origin
    from monos and genos

    There is only one true God. The Truth is, God is family (the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit) and always has been. Simple, really.

    Jesus (because He's the Son now in His glorified body) is the "firstborn" of the resurrection. Who reconciled to Himself all things. Notice, however, that Him being "firstborn" from the dead does NOT prohibit His existence prior to His resurrection. Neither does the Son being "firstborn" of all creation prohibit His existence prior to creation.

    Colossians 1:18 (DLNT)
    And He Himself is the head of the body, the church. [ The Son Is First In Everything, Because God Reconciled All Things Through Him ] ... Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, in order that He Himself might come-to-be holding-first-place in all things,

    What's prohibited is the Father being a Father without a Son (i.e. changing into the Father). Or the Son being created (i.e. somehow creating Himself):

    Colossians 1:15-16
    [ The Son Is The Preeminent Head of All Creation, Because He Created All Things ] ... Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 because all things were created by Him ..


    The 'no' is clearly an answer contrary to essential Christian doctrine (and this site's SoF) and a lack of understanding that God does NOT mean the Father:

    We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.​

    The Son is eternal. The Father didn't 'become' a father anymore than the Son became a son. God's eternally and unchangeably been the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    What's amazing is that some Christians do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins.

    Jesus' body saw death, the Son of God did not. Christian doctrine says that the Son was manifest in the tent of Jesus' body and Jesus body lived in Egypt for awhile, then Nazareth for awhile then died and was resurrected in Jerusalem and now lives at the right hand of the Father. None of which precludes the Son having always been God (past present and future).

    Christian's know Jesus of Nazareth took on flesh (the Son became flesh, Emmanuel, God with us) inside Mary's womb. But to claim that the Son had a beginning 'sometime' prior to the creation of heaven/earth is to claim error and make a claim contrary to Essential Christian Doctrine.

    His earthly body [that is the Son's earthly body-Christ, NOT the Father's and NOT the Holy Spirit's earthly body but rather the Son's] suffered upon His arrest and beatings. [He is the suffering Servant- Christ]
    His earthly body died upon His crucifixion. [So, it's just a tent (a temporary dwelling for the Son who now has a glorified body.]
    His earthly body did not see decay. [Neither did Jonah's]
    The Son (while His earthy body lay in the tomb) proclaimed the baptism in Himself to the spirits in prison.
    His earthly body then was made-alive by The Spirit and saw glorification/resurrection on the Third Day.

    Because Christ Himself Suffered To Bring Us To God, And Is Now Glorified By God
    1 Peter 3:18-19 (DLNT) Because Christ also suffered once-for-all for sins— a righteous One for unrighteous ones— in order that He might bring you to God, having been put-to-death in the flesh but made-alive by the Spirit, by Whom also having gone, He proclaimed to the spirits in prison ...

    Acts 2:31
    having foreseen it, he [David] spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ— that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh see decay.
    Acts 13:35
    Therefore also in another place it says, ‘You will not give Your holy One to see decay’ [Ps 16:10].
    No it doesn't. It's a quotation of a Messianic Psalm. Furthermore one that shows the Jesus in Lord.

    Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid-the-foundation-of the earth at the beginnings, and the heavens are works of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You continue]. Indeed they will all become-old like a garment, 12 and You will roll them up as-if a cloak. They will indeed be changed like a garment. But You are the same, and Your years will not end” [Ps 102:25-27].

    See, the Son has always been Lord, the same.

    Wrong again. Heb 1:1 doesn't even mention the Father. You are merely assuming it was the Father that spoke long ago by the prophets. How do you know it wasn't the Holy Spirit (or the Son, or all three persons) speaking long ago by the prophets?

    Heb 1:1 God, having spoken long-ago in-many-portions and in-many-ways to the fathers by the prophets, spoke to us at the last of these days by a Son,

    See, Jesus is God. That is, the Son of God in earthly flesh speaking directly to other people who are not prophets.

    John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me?

    See, if you believe the Father was living in Jesus (which BTW is not what the verse says), do you not also believe Jesus was 'living' in the Father? You just cannot have a father without a son. And Jesus knew it.

    Hebrews 1:3
    Who— being the radiance of His glory and exact-representation of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power— having made purification of sins, sat-down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    Who was being the radiance of God's glory and essence prior to the Son, on your view?
     
  17. Randy

    Randy Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
     
  18. Randy

    Randy Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
    How do I know hebrews 1:1 is the Father who is called God speaking through Jesus?
    Jesus=>For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
    I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
    Jesus=>Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.
    Jesus=>The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

    what beginning is John 1:1 refer to
    The beginning of the creation Hebrews :10 (genesis 1:1-in the beginning) Not always was
    He also says, "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    AS I stated Jesus never dies and Jesus is the Son of God. His body yes, His spirit no

    Is Jesus just the firstborn from the dead?
    Rather He is before all things
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. "First"
    Does it state begotten?
    The firstborn of all creation
    to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
    And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

    Why is Jesus the image of the invisible God? Was it because Jesus always was and alway was God?
    because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him - clearly from another

    Jesus to the Father (Oneness)
    I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one--
    Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

    Jesus has a God Rev 1:6
    and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
    Jesus has his own spirit "father into your hands I commit my spirit"

    I do not hold that the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit or Spirit of truth is a separate distinct spirit or person from the "Father" From the Son -yes
    Rather as the Father declares in regard to that spirit "my spirit" see Fathers promise
    Jesus=>matt 10:20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
    The fullness in the Son is the Father and is not a different God or diety who is God
     
    brujaq likes this.
  19. brother Paul

    brother Paul Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,277
    Christian:
    Yes
    Romans 8:9 and the test for this is "you shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 25)
     

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