I believe the Trinity doctrine is clearly made up and the triune god is a false god.
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2017 thread brought back to life.
I want to comment. My redneck way, and hopefully it makes sense.
The human body is an extremely complicated creation of God.
We really have a difficult time knowing all the systems. Nervous, metabolic, etc.
The great commission says (teaching them all things I have commanded you). That seems to say:
Keep It Complicated Stupid
KICS
Sounds like KISS
Which is Keep It Simple Stupid
The problems arise:
The tonsils are infected:So snip
The appendix is infected: snip
The thyroid is messed up : snip
The Gallbladder is problematic: snip
This has gone on for years. Some people are getting very simple. But we finally realize the simple snips are removing necessary parts of our body. The blood tests and medications are now very complex. And beyond our intelligence at times.
So it is in religion. If a problem arises we just cut that problem off.
I am for seeking proper function, but leaving necessary items in if it is possible. If your hand has gangrene it may have to go.
So I am for all the complexity we can manage.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
I want to comment. My redneck way, and hopefully it makes sense.
The human body is an extremely complicated creation of God.
We really have a difficult time knowing all the systems. Nervous, metabolic, etc.
The great commission says (teaching them all things I have commanded you). That seems to say:
Keep It Complicated Stupid
KICS
Sounds like KISS
Which is Keep It Simple Stupid
The problems arise:
The tonsils are infected:So snip
The appendix is infected: snip
The thyroid is messed up : snip
The Gallbladder is problematic: snip
This has gone on for years. Some people are getting very simple. But we finally realize the simple snips are removing necessary parts of our body. The blood tests and medications are now very complex. And beyond our intelligence at times.
So it is in religion. If a problem arises we just cut that problem off.
I am for seeking proper function, but leaving necessary items in if it is possible. If your hand has gangrene it may have to go.
So I am for all the complexity we can manage.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Now the rest of the story.
But I have an insulin pump, I do not need a pancreas any more. Yes, but do you have the latest pump with the latest app.
This becomes the problem when we try and create a new doctrine that is not quite natural. Thus the new doctrine may have an immune response that attacks it.
eddif
But I have an insulin pump, I do not need a pancreas any more. Yes, but do you have the latest pump with the latest app.
This becomes the problem when we try and create a new doctrine that is not quite natural. Thus the new doctrine may have an immune response that attacks it.
eddif
So who is Jesus?
Are you sure than that you have the Son as you also seem to reject the glory of oneness between Father and Son?
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ
If you don't have the Son you don't have the Father either. This is very important for you to understand. Any spirit that keeps you from embracing the Son is not the Spirit of God who sends us to the Son. Our life is bound to being in the Son by the will of the Father. The Son is not a false or another God as He and the Father are one as "He" testified to this truth.
The Son has life in Himself.
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
I reject your reading of glory of oneness.
You changed to Trinity.
You have been rejecting Jesus' own word.
How is it to glory God and Jesus?
None.
Still don't know?
I have been claiming Jesus is the Son of God and His followers Lord and Christ.
I tell of the one I know. My testimony hasn't changed. He is all that the Father is.
Neither has His
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Yes, a man-made one, void of Jesus' word.
I can understand if the word "Trinity" bothers you, so if you prefer not to use it we can put that off to the side since the term itself came later in church history. I can also appreciate the logical, and philosophical difficulties the doctrine of the Trinity presents. I can respect that you disagree with it and I will not attempt to change your views.
My only point is to say that historically belief in Jesus's deity began with the earliest Christians. The earliest Christians worshipped Christ, and wrote and sang hymns to Christ, and prayed to Christ, and were baptized in Christ's name. Old Testament passages that were about Yawheh, were understood by the early church to refer to Christ. The earliest Christians still taught that there was one God who alone deserved worship, but this was now expanded to include worship of Christ alongside God the Father, while still rejecting all other false gods, and saying there is only one true God.
I can understand if you reject the belief of the early Christians. That is your right to do so. But the belief, itself, in Christ's deity is still a defining mark of Christianity, and so it cannot be elminated from Christianity. To do so, is to ask Christianity not to be what it is.
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Yes, it bothers me a whole lot becaseu God is not triune.
His followers should not spread false god as Christian God to the world.
It is a lie.
It does not bother you??????????????
"Trinity" comes from the Latin trinitas meaning threefold or triad. The doctrine of the Trinity of course is an attempt to formally flesh out what the New Testament teaches, particularly in the centuries that followed in the time of the christological heresies when it was important to be able to identify the church's true teaching on the subject to distinguish it from heretical teachings that distorted original church teaching.
The New Testament asserts Christ's pre-existence, incarnation, full humanity, as well as full deity. This of course leaves many questions like how could God become man, and how could the incarnate Jesus (the Word) be God but also separate from God at the same time, and how could Jesus be both fully human and fully divine.
The New Testament doesn't try to explain or solve the problems. It just asserts that it is true. The later christological councils that formalized the doctrine of the Trinity tried to make sense of it.
Because the word Trinity and triune are a bit anachronistic and read the name back into the Bible after the fact I won't use it with you. The word Trinity does not occur in the Bible. It's the word later Christians used to give a name to what the New Testament teaches.
But what's important is that the New Testament teaches it. Like John 1.1, which I'm sure you know, which calls the incarnate Word (Jesus) God:
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"---John 1.1
Now, I can appreciate that not everyone believes the above statement. So Non-Christians have the right to believe it or reject it. But what we're not allowed to do is change history. This is what the first century Christians believed. One can choose not to believe it, but one cannot say that Christians didn't believe it, because that is literally where the teaching came from: the first Christians. It was the earliest Christians who claimed Jesus is God and worshipped and prayed to Jesus as God.
Non-Christians certainly don't have to believe it. But this is what Christians believe.
Thanks for your education about your man-made doctrine.
But I am not interested.
Good night.
3rd
And yet you are short on proof. Do you deny that the first century Christians worshipped and prayed to Jesus, and believed Jesus is God? Do you deny John 1.1?
Is that the best you can do?
Jesus never said He is God.
I have the most post powerful Jesus' own statement.
You cannot quote anything from Jesus' own mouth that He is God.
Scriptures of God and Disciples calling Christ, The Servant of God.
Servant Yahshua
Isaiah 42:1
“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
Isaiah 49:6
he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
Isaiah 52:13
See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
Zechariah 3:8
“‘Listen, High Priest of Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.
Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Yahshua. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.
Acts 3:26
When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
Acts 4:27
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Yahshua, whom you anointed.
Acts 4:30
Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Yahshua.”
John 1:1
Greek:
en arche eimi ho logos kai ho logos eimi pros ton theon kai theos eimi ho logos
Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (word) eimi (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning the one or only, it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (divine) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (word)
In English we have:
In beginning was the word, and the word was with (the one or only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the word.
Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the one or only) before Divine Eternal?
I never said Jesus directly claimed to be God. I said the early Christians believed him to be and worshipped him as God. Do you deny this? Is it wrong to bow down to Jesus? Is it wrong to worship Jesus?
Your translation is incorrect. Theon is simply the accusative case of the noun God, which is the case used when a noun follows a preposition. Theios is the adjective for "divine" which does not appear in John 1.1. Also, ton is not a special definite article. It's simply the accusative case for "the." The case of the definite article and noun must agree by the rules of grammar. It just means "the," not one or only which is a different Greek word.
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I know you did not becaseu there is no statement from Jesus.
All your claims are easily debunked because you don't have any of Jesus' powerful statements.