Bible Study Hell Payment for others sins?

[Jehovah-Rapha]

I don't want a debate, but your thoughts on this concept and Bible references if possible.
Some Christian denominations teach that hell is temporary not eternal.
On this premise: The un-repentent will pay for only their sins???

Genesis 2:24
a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Matthew 19:5
‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?

1 Corinthians 6:16
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

What about the un-repentent who became one with others through sexually union?
Since God sees them as one entity?
Do they pay for their partners sins as well?

Or what about those persons they committed adultery with, and are now joined as one with everyone they committed adultery with?
That would be paying for quite a lot of sins (that run into eternity), since they are now connected to so many.
Of course nobody knows how long a time span they would be paying for each adultery, excluding all the others they're connected to?
Just heard the news, about pro-life marches.
Here's another sin connected to the above...
It has always been common practice for women to have secret abortions, to conceal the fruit of fornication and adulterous affairs.
So is abortion, added to the adultery sins, since they are connected.
There are others sins that spring forth from sexual sins, but this is all for now.
You are free to add to this list.

 

[reba]

The Cross was the payment for our sin..

 

[atpollard]

Romans 7:1-6 [NIV]
1-3
Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4-6
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Here you have the response both physical and spiritual to your question. In verses 1-3 note that the 'one flesh' bond is terminated at death. Therefore, even in the incorrect theological premise presented where sinners were to be punished for a while, they are not bound by the one flesh bond after death. Your spouse is on their own.

In verses 4-6, we have the spiritual point that Reba made. We have already died to the flesh and been reborn through the spirit. Thus there is no sin and no condemnation for God's new creation.

 

[st_worm2]

Some Christian denominations teach that hell is temporary not eternal.

Hi J-R, if you don't mind me asking, which denominations are those?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Chopper]

Good morning my Sister. I'll tell you, that's a great question for a thread. Reba is right in her post....

The Cross was the payment for our sin..

....Although this is true, the oneness in the marriage bond applies to life before death as atpollard stated....

note that the 'one flesh' bond is terminated at death

Your statement....

Some Christian denominations teach that hell is temporary not eternal.

....refers to the Catholic doctrine of purgatory which is not true according to true Christian doctrine.

Now my Sister, you made a very good question....

What about the un-repentent who became one with others through sexually union?
Since God sees them as one entity?
Do they pay for their partners sins as well?

....

Mark 10:11 "And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."

The only permission for divorce and remarriage is given by Jesus in....Matthew 5:32 "But I (Jesus) say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

Here's my thinking. If a divorce and remarriage occurs for any reason other than adultery (fornication, any illegal sexual activity) and marries another, is guilty of adultery. This is not the unforgivable sin. God will forgive this sin of adultery. But there is a problem stated by some Theologians which raises a good question. Even though God forgives the sin of the original sin of adultery/fornication, what about each time they have sex the next time and every sex act in the future. Some say that the couple has to ask forgiveness every time they have sex, while others say that God's forgiveness at the start covers each sex act.

Perhaps we can get others opinions on this.

 

[reba]

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

 

[reba]

Sin is forgiven 'at repentance' .. ( sure some one else can say that better) .. His blood paid the price...
All sin has consequences ... Because a thief is forgiven does not imply he should not make restitution ..
Because the drunk lady is forgiven at repentance does not mean she skips jail time for the accident
The hooker and the client can both be forgiven does that forgiveness also heal the STDs
His forgiveness may or may not heal the guilt of abortion.. IMO he is as guilty as she for the abortion.. I dont want to hear I didn't know she did THAT.. if ya dont know her dont be 'sleeping' with her..
IMO the denominations the OP is speaking of is off track implying hell is payment for sin... Any group that teaches hell is payment for sin obviously does not understand the Cross.

Here Jesus says Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. He does not say punish He says perish

 

[th1b.taylor]

As atpollard indicated, the scripture you used has nothing to do with with life beyond this world but cover life and marital relations here on earth. And then, Hell is temporary but when everyone is released from Hell it is to stand thye Judgement at the Great White Throne Judgement and from there to the Lake of Fire/Abyss.

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

The Cross was the payment for our sin..

Do you mean that un-repented sinners have no sins because Jesus paid for them, and therefore there is no Judgement for them, even though they do not surrender to Jesus as Lord and Savior?

 

[reba]

NO repentance matters big time

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

... Sorry, need to clarify..
I am not speaking of marriage, or divorce, or to believers.
In marriage only in the case of one committing adultery. I know that the one committing adultery would be one with their adulterous partner.
But if they are married to a believer, I doubt the believer would be held responsible for all the others sins.

I heard this teaching about Hell not being eternal, several years ago, ( but if I am recalling correctly ) it was Doug Bachelor from the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Though Doug is one of my many favorites of other denominations) I do not agree with them on this and other issues.
I am non-denomination, I am not a Seventh Day Adventist. I believe in an eternal hell.
The question I pose here, "for those going to hell", (whatever definition of Hell people believe in), I know that's another long study do they - the un-believer-suffer there in Hell, for "their sins only" or everyone they have "become one with" ?
Have a blessed weekend everyone

 

[Chopper]

Hi there Sister J.R. You may have heard a popular Baptist saying, "Hell is temporary until the Great White Throne Judgment. The permanent place is the Lake Of Fire." Also, each individual who is unsaved, will be judged on their works or deeds. The "books" hold all their evil deeds....
Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

I hope this helps.

 

[abide]

NO repentance matters big time

In order for a person to be forgiven, they must repent...not only feel sorry but turn around, change.
If a judge or president pardon you for a crime after you have spent time in jail...would it make sense for you after you have been released to go and commit the same crime or other crimes. Repentance is an integral part of salvation. Jesus told people to repent and the gospel writers along with the apostles in the New Testament did the same. Even in the old testament, the same theme runs through the bible.

2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Ezekiel 18:21-23 - But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Read More...)

Acts 17:30 - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Proverbs 28:13 - He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.

James 4:8-10 - Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. (Read More...)

Revelation 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2 Corinthians 7:9-11 - Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. (Free Bible Commentary.org)


Once convicted (the Holy Spirit does the convicting) the person acknowledge that they have sin and begins to make a change in their lives. I believe that if the persons refuses to change and continues sinning I believe that their conscience will be seared with a hot iron...like what Paul said. 1 Timothy 4:2

 

[reba]

Thanks abide .. I have only been popping in and out been painting the spare room

 

[abide]

... Sorry, need to clarify..
I am not speaking of marriage, or divorce, or to believers.
In marriage only in the case of one committing adultery. I know that the one committing adultery would be one with their adulterous partner.
But if they are married to a believer, I doubt the believer would be held responsible for all the others sins.

I heard this teaching about Hell not being eternal, several years ago, ( but if I am recalling correctly ) it was Doug Bachelor from the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Though Doug is one of my many favorites of other denominations) I do not agree with them on this and other issues.
I am non-denomination, I am not a Seventh Day Adventist. I believe in an eternal hell.
The question I pose here, "for those going to hell", (whatever definition of Hell people believe in), I know that's another long study do they - the un-believer-suffer there in Hell, for "their sins only" or everyone they have "become one with" ?
Have a blessed weekend everyone

My church does not believe in hell. But I have yet to be convinced otherwise. This scripture cannot be explained by those who hold this view.
Revelation 20:20, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
For those who do not believe in an everburning hell. How do they explain the term tormented.
When I was girl my mother would say to me if kept nagging her for something. She would say girl, don't torment my spirit.
Mark 9:43 (KJV 1900)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
unquenchable...CANNOT GO OUT.
Christ spoke a lot about hell.
I believe the only thing that would cause a person to serve God is the punishment of hell. If people who refuse to serve God and despise his way are just thrown in a burning lake and then that goes out. How then can they be tormented. If they are burnt up they cannot be tormented. Interestingly people understand eternal life but when the bible say the fire in hell is everlasting...they seem not to understand the meaning of everlasting.
We look at things through our human environment, a fire burns and then it goes out.
If God can cause a fire to burn...HE CAN KEEP IT BURNING.

People use the argument that God is too loving to cause people to burn for ever. God destroyed the world by a flood for the wicked things they did...and YET up to this day they are still doing wickedly.

 

[Douglas Summers]

But there is a problem stated by some Theologians which raises a good question. Even though God forgives the sin of the original sin of adultery/fornication, what about each time they have sex the next time and every sex act in the future. Some say that the couple has to ask forgiveness every time they have sex, while others say that God's forgiveness at the start covers each sex act.

While a born again believer is not free from temptation, He is at war with the flesh. (Gal. 5:16-17). The born again believer does not practice sin, he strives against it (God will give you a way out 1 Cor. 10:12-15. James 1:13-21) (1 John 1:5-10). This Spiritual power refers to the born again believer. Nominal Christians do not have this power and easily fall into temptation. But does God forgive such things? Yes! (1 Cor. 5:1-8). I will let you search out the other Scriptures where this man is forgiven by the Church body along with Paul.

 

[Chopper]

While a born again believer is not free from temptation, He is at war with the flesh. (Gal. 5:16-17). The born again believer does not practice sin, he strives against it (God will give you a way out 1 Cor. 10:12-15. James 1:13-21) (1 John 1:5-10). This Spiritual power refers to the born again believer. Nominal Christians do not have this power and easily fall into temptation. But does God forgive such things? Yes! (1 Cor. 5:1-8). I will let you search out the other Scriptures where this man is forgiven by the Church body along with Paul.

The Church and Paul did forgive because the sin stopped. In the case that I just posted, the sex act continues.

 

[Chopper]

My church does not believe in hell. But I have yet to be convinced otherwise. This scripture cannot be explained by those who hold this view.
Revelation 20:20, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
For those who do not believe in an everburning hell. How do they explain the term tormented.
When I was girl my mother would say to me if kept nagging her for something. She would say girl, don't torment my spirit.
Mark 9:43 (KJV 1900)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
unquenchable...CANNOT GO OUT.
Christ spoke a lot about hell.
I believe the only thing that would cause a person to serve God is the punishment of hell. If people who refuse to serve God and despise his way are just thrown in a burning lake and then that goes out. How then can they be tormented. If they are burnt up they cannot be tormented. Interestingly people understand eternal life but when the bible say the fire in hell is everlasting...they seem not to understand the meaning of everlasting.
We look at things through our human environment, a fire burns and then it goes out.
If God can cause a fire to burn...HE CAN KEEP IT BURNING.

People use the argument that God is too loving to cause people to burn for ever. God destroyed the world by a flood for the wicked things they did...and YET up to this day they are still doing wickedly.

Good morning Sister abide. You stated....

My church does not believe in hell.

....Just what kind of a church doesn't believe in hell? Jehovah's Witness? You certainly believe in hell according to your quotes, good for you. If your church doesn't believe in a major Christian doctrine like hell, they error in other major area's as well.

Why don't you go to a real Bible preaching/teaching body of believers? Perhaps a small "House Church".

 

[smaller]

There are a lot of bad understandings of sin (aka hamartology, the christian theological study of sin) in the realms of christianity.

The most difficult thing to understand about sin, for any believer, and most do not understand it, is that "our sin" is of the devil. 1 John 3:

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The first understanding that needs to come to the table is that sin is not a matter of just and only MANKIND. Sin is a matter of mankind and the devil. Need more proof? There's plenty. Here Jesus shows us the 'sin' of THEFT by Satan, in mankind:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Do we see just and only mankind in the above action of THEFT? Nope. We see just as 1 John 3:8 sees. We see mankind and Satan.

So, understanding this simplicity, why do christians even have any discussions of SIN without factoring in the OTHER PARTY? It's a very ignorant approach to the subject matter.

So, how might this basic understanding affect our sights? Let's take a couple of quick examples postured by the first post. Is punishment in the LoF applicable to the devil? Yep! Check! Rev. 20:10 also shows this fate to be eternal. Satan is NOT getting out of the LoF. In fact nothing and no one going into said LoF is shown as getting out. That's not going to happen.

Now, let's look at the equations of 'forgiveness.' Is a believer forgiven? Of course. BUT, is Satan, the devil forgiven? NOPE! Why then have a one sided discussion about forgiveness then? In the equation of sin there is both forgiveness and unforgiveness. Do you see the difficulties of trying to see this only through one eye?

Now, let's talk about atonement of Jesus at the cross. Was atonement completely effective for believers? Absolutely! Completely! But, the big BUT comes to roost again. Was atonement effective for Satan, the devil? NOPE! The atonement didn't do the devil/Satan one bit of good.

So again, we see the frailties in trying to establish ONE SIDED ONE EYED theological positions that are so BLIND to the entire equations they are not even worthy of serious discussions.

 

[abide]

Good morning Sister abide. You stated........Just what kind of a church doesn't believe in hell? Jehovah's Witness? You certainly believe in hell according to your quotes, good for you. If your church doesn't believe in a major Christian doctrine like hell, they error in other major area's as well.

Why don't you go to a real Bible preaching/teaching body of believers? Perhaps a small "House Church".

a small "House Church". I have been thinking about that