How much is enough?

[Cygnus]

How much is enough? That is a question for those that believe we merit or earn salvation. How much "good" must we do?
For the OSNAS posters.....How much good works, merit, following Christ must we do to remain in salvation?

Do we need to do one act of "good" a day? 20 acts of good a week? 1,000 acts of good a month? What's the number?

 

[WIP]

Maybe I'm wrong but if I am understanding the position of OSNAS correctly, the answer to your question is, only one - remain in Christ.

 

[th1b.taylor]

When I saw the title I was prepared to give you famous answer given by a, now past John D. Rockafeller, multi-billionaire in he fifties, when the was asked, "How much is enough?" He answered, "One more dollar!" And as I recall the two of them discussed his answer and he explained that always, it is just one more dollar and it will be enough. But that is not the topic and I am out of place.

 

[Nathan]

How much is enough? That is a question for those that believe we merit or earn salvation. How much "good" must we do?
For the OSNAS posters.....How much good works, merit, following Christ must we do to remain in salvation?

Do we need to do one act of "good" a day? 20 acts of good a week? 1,000 acts of good a month? What's the number?

Mar 10:17-22
And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

 

[Cygnus]

Maybe I'm wrong but if I am understanding the position of OSNAS correctly, the answer to your question is, only one - remain in Christ.

OK, I've heard many different things....what must a person do to NOT remain in Christ?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Maybe I'm wrong but if I am understanding the position of OSNAS correctly, the answer to your question is, only one - remain in Christ.

I think that's the best answer to the question. Next will be: What does it mean/look like to remain in Christ?

It seems to me that when someone puts their faith in Christ, such faith remain to the end. It's not a one-time thing but an on-going, every present state of the heart. This is a sign of a true believer. When the Holy Spirit changes hearts, they are truly changed. True believers grow stronger in faith as time goes on.

 

[Cygnus]

Mar 10:17-22
And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

I've read that verse numerous times.....and i know one thing, no human can acheive what is on that list. Sure, we may not murder or even commit adultery.....but many christians have stolen, bore false witness and have not honored their father and mother.

So, the take away from me with you presenting this verse is that you gotta be perfect....if you do any of the above, you lose your salvation.
...but then again, this is what I perceive you as saying.....I don't want you to open you reply back accusing me of putting words in your mouth.

 

[Cygnus]

I think that's the best answer to the question. Next will be: What does it mean/look like to remain in Christ?

It seems to me that when someone puts their faith in Christ, such faith remain to the end. It's not a one-time thing but an on-going, every present state of the heart. This is a sign of a true believer. When the Holy Spirit changes hearts, they are truly changed. True believers grow stronger in faith as time goes on.

Reading you post i would say your in the following camp...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

...they were never saved. They had no salvation to lose.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Reading you post i would say your in the following camp...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

...they were never saved. They had no salvation to lose.

You read me correctly. God saves. God keeps. We grow. A sign of a true believer is endurance to the end. That's what true believers do. And these days we have to distinguish "believers" from true believers. One is shallow, the other deep.

 

[Nathan]

I've read that verse numerous times.....and i know one thing, no human can acheive what is on that list. Sure, we may not murder or even commit adultery.....but many christians have stolen, bore false witness and have not honored their father and mother.

So, the take away from me with you presenting this verse is that you gotta be perfect....if you do any of the above, you lose your salvation.
...but then again, this is what I perceive you as saying.....I don't want you to open you reply back accusing me of putting words in your mouth.

Well, Jesus was not lying. I would not say if you "do any of the above, you lose your salvation" in reference to your statements about sin.

However, we do know what Paul says;

Gal 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Cygnus]

You read me correctly. God saves. God keeps. We grow. A sign of a true believer is endurance to the end. That's what true believers do. And these days we have to distinguish "believers" from true believers. One is shallow, the other deep.

I don't know if I agree with this part....endurance to the end....first because I think that verse is pulled out of context from the Gospel and secondly it causes me to ask this question....endure what and how much is considered as enduring to the end.

Then again you did differentiate betwen a "believer" and a true believer as if a "believer" wasn't really saved.

 

[Nathan]

Reading you post i would say your in the following camp...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

...they were never saved. They had no salvation to lose.

So do you have to continue to do the things that Christians do in order to be saved?

 

[Cygnus]

Well, Jesus was not lying. I would not say if you "do any of the above, you lose your salvation" in reference to your statements about sin.

However, we do know what Paul says;

Gal 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

According to your point of view...I'm ot saved. Or I have lost my salvation because I have been jealous or have had a fit or rage. I can't go through the list and check each one off as not something I have done or acted as a christian.

...this is part of the reason why I said, if you can lose your salvation...you already have.

 

[Cygnus]

So do you have to continue to do the things that Christians do in order to be saved?

That's what the OP is about...how much? How many of Christ things do I have to continue to do in order to remain saved?

 

[Nathan]

According to your point of view...I'm ot saved. Or I have lost my salvation because I have been jealous or have had a fit or rage. I can't go through the list and check each one off as not something I have done or acted as a christian.

...this is part of the reason why I said, if you can lose your salvation...you already have.

Ah, I wondered how long till you threw an insult my way. You did very well with your first response to me, in presenting your thoughts as your thoughts instead of trying to make me say something I was not.

I actually did not imply that you are not saved, or that you have lost your salvation.

 

[Nathan]

That's what the OP is about...how much? How many of Christ things do I have to continue to do in order to remain saved?

How many did you do to be saved?

 

[Cygnus]

Ah, I wondered how long till you threw an insult my way. You did very well with your first response to me, in presenting your thoughts as your thoughts instead of trying to make me say something I was not.

I actually did not imply that you are not saved, or that you have lost your salvation.

Then be less cryptic....what MUST one do inorder to remain saved. You presented a list earlier...and anyone reading your post would easily assume that list was your requirement to remain saved....why else would you present that list?

 

[Cygnus]

How many did you do to be saved?

ZERO. Christ did it ALL.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I don't know if I agree with this part....endurance to the end....first because I think that verse is pulled out of context from the Gospel and secondly it causes me to ask this question....endure what and how much is considered as enduring to the end.

Then again you did differentiate betwen a "believer" and a true believer as if a "believer" wasn't really saved.

I use the word endurance because that conveys what I mean. A runner, running a race, wants to endure to the end. To finish the race. That is the intent. A true believer will "keep on keeping on" or, endure. Persevere. They don't give up or walk away. And they certainly won't turn their back on Christ and deny him. If roots go deep, the tree is strong. If the soil is firm, a tree with deep roots will stand up against anything. If the soil is sandy, or the roots shallow and sparse, the tree will fall under its own weight.

This isn't to suggest that a true believer can't sin or even walk away from faith. But they will repent and come back. Peter did this very thing as did the other disciples. God is for us that even while we were yet sinners, Christ died. How much more now that we are saints!

I would never tell a new believer they could lose their salvation. First, the Bible doesn't teach this. Second, there would be no better way to confuse and frustrate a new believer than to put such a needless burden on them. The Bible says to encourage one another unto good works. That's the positive message. That's the biblical mandate for true believers.

 

[Nathan]

Then be less cryptic....what MUST one do inorder to remain saved. You presented a list earlier...and anyone reading your post would easily assume that list was your requirement to remain saved....why else would you present that list?

I presented a passage from Paul's letter to the Galatians, in which he "lists" a number of things that are works of the flesh. He states that those who do them, which in context means those who continue in them, will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

People should not assume things that I do not state. I agree with Paul is why I posted that passage.