How much is enough?

[Nathan]

ZERO. Christ did it ALL.

Then that is your answer.

 

[Cygnus]

I use the word endurance because that conveys what I mean. A runner, running a race, wants to endure to the end. To finish the race. That is the intent. A true believer will "keep on keeping on" or, endure. Persevere. They don't give up or walk away. And they certainly won't turn their back on Christ and deny him. If roots go deep, the tree is strong. If the soil is firm, a tree with deep roots will stand up against anything. If the soil is sandy, or the roots shallow and sparse, the tree will fall under its own weight.

This isn't to suggest that a true believer can't sin or even walk away from faith. But they will repent and come back. Peter did this very thing as did the other disciples. God is for us that even while we were yet sinners, Christ died. How much more now that we are saints!

I would never tell a new believer they could lose their salvation. First, the Bible doesn't teach this. Second, there would be no better way to confuse and frustrate a new believer than to put such a needless burden on them. The Bible says to encourage one another unto good works. That's the positive message. That's the biblical mandate for true believers.

I would have to change this....A true believer will "keep on keeping on"...to this...A true believer should "keep on keeping on"

 

[Cygnus]

I presented a passage from Paul's letter to the Galatians, in which he "lists" a number of things that are works of the flesh. He states that those who do them, which in context means those who continue in them, will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

People should not assume things that I do not state. I agree with Paul is why I posted that passage.

nathan, when you post a verse on a topic....one should explain why they posted the verse. Judging from your previous post, one can see how I made my mistake.....and should have thought otherwise.

 

[Nathan]

nathan, when you post a verse on a topic....one should explain why they posted the verse. Judging from your previous post, one can see how I made my mistake.....and should have thought otherwise.

In my original post of it, I was contrasting what Jesus said about what a person must do to have eternal life, with what Paul said about those who will not have the kingdom of God(eternal life).

 

[Cygnus]

In my original post of it, I was contrasting what Jesus said about what a person must do to have eternal life, with what Paul said about those who will not have the kingdom of God(eternal life).

How did that answer the OP...How much is enough...

 

[WIP]

According to your point of view...I'm ot saved. Or I have lost my salvation because I have been jealous or have had a fit or rage. I can't go through the list and check each one off as not something I have done or acted as a christian.

...this is part of the reason why I said, if you can lose your salvation...you already have.

When I hear this kind of talk I can't help but think the speaker is looking for a recipe. God knows one's heart. He knows our intentions, our motives, our faith.

Since I have accepted Jesus my desire is to respond to His calling to grow and mature in my faith. To that end my desire is to do His will, follow His commands. In other words, take up my cross and follow Him. If I stumble, I know He is right beside me to help me back up onto my feet and continue pushing forward as long as I continue to accept Him. But if I decide to give up, throw my cross on the ground and burn it, and totally turn back to my old wicked ways and denying Him, I don't expect that He will drag me back kicking and screaming against my will.

What the OSAS position has failed to show me is how does one reconcile all of the Scripture that warns against willful sin, unpardonable sin, failing to follow Him, and so on in addition to the Scripture they keep hanging on as justification for the OSAS position. All of Scripture must have unity or it falls apart.

What I also hear from the OSAS argument is a false sense of security that allows me to give up, throw my cross on the ground and burn it, deny Christ and His work, and turn back to my old wicked ways and everything will be hunky-dory. In my mind, this position denies all of the warnings against willful sin, unpardonable sin, failing to follow Him, and so on and basically sugar-coats salvation by claiming all that will happen is a little reprimand or lesser reward but reward is still coming. Reminds me of our nobody's a loser mentality. Everyone gets a prize, there are no losers, just some prizes are better than others. The problem I see in this is that if one is aware of a lesser prize in heaven, the door is then open for jealousy or sadness or even anger which then must be reconciled with Revelation 21:4.

 

[Cygnus]

What the OSAS position has failed to show me is how does one reconcile all of the Scripture that warns against willful sin, unpardonable sin, failing to follow Him, and so on in addition to the Scripture they keep hanging on as justification for the OSAS position. All of Scripture must have unity or it falls apart.

There is a difference between falling out of fellowship with God than falling out of salvation. Willful sin pushes us from fellowship. Yes, Christians are warned against willful sin.

What I also hear from the OSAS argument is a false sense of security that allows me to give up, throw my cross on the ground and burn it, deny Christ and His work, and turn back to my old wicked ways and everything will be hunky-dory. In my mind, this position denies all of the warnings against willful sin, unpardonable sin, failing to follow Him, and so on and basically sugar-coats salvation by claiming all that will happen is a little reprimand or lesser reward but reward is still coming. Reminds me of our nobody's a loser mentality. Everyone gets a prize, there are no losers, just some prizes are better than others. The problem I see in this is that if one is aware of a lesser prize in heaven, the door is then open for jealousy or sadness or even anger which then must be reconciled with Revelation 21:4.

Does it really? Is that what the OSAS are saying? "throw my cross on the ground and burn it, deny Christ and His work,"??? One has to wonder why you would take an extreme example of what you think the OSAS are saying...and present it as the norm.

Remember fellowship is different than salvation.

On the other hand, how does this anwer the OP?

 

[Nathan]

Remember fellowship is different than salvation.

I hear this a lot but never found where Jesus, the disciples, or anyone else taught this in the NT. Where exactly do we find this passage that states this?

 

[Cygnus]

I hear this a lot but never found where Jesus, the disciples, or anyone else taught this in the NT. Where exactly do we find this passage that states this?

Before I answer I have to ask...do you disagree?

Anyway...it may not have the precise detail and exact words you demand..but if you read the whole chapter rather than just this verse it may help.
1st Cor 3:15....If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

In the above there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of fellowship between the individual and God. There was no works performed for Gods glory. He suffered the loss of no rewards....He was saved. But "barely" if I might use that term.

 

[WIP]

There is a difference between falling out of fellowship with God than falling out of salvation. Willful sin pushes us from fellowship. Yes, Christians are warned against willful sin.




Does it really? Is that what the OSAS are saying? "throw my cross on the ground and burn it, deny Christ and His work,"??? One has to wonder why you would take an extreme example of what you think the OSAS are saying...and present it as the norm.

Remember fellowship is different than salvation.

On the other hand, how does this anwer the OP?

Typical of how others respond. Twist my words into saying something I did not say. Read what I wrote again and you will see that I did not say that OSAS teaches that we should throw our cross on the ground and deny Christ. If you'd like I can search CFnet and find posts where I asked point blank if a saved person turned and denied Christ and began to worship Satan if he/she would remains saved, the answer I got was, "Yes." There are at least two instances when I did this and both times I got the same answer.

What I did say was that what I hear OSAS teach is that I can deny Christ, throw my cross on the ground, worship Satan, and so on and I will be saved anyway.

In my mind, spending eternity with Christ but not in fellowship with Him would be a living hell.

 

[Nathan]

Before I answer I have to ask...do you disagree?

Anyway...it may not have the precise detail and exact words you demand..but if you read the whole chapter rather than just this verse it may help.
1st Cor 3:15....If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

In the above there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of fellowship between the individual and God. There was no works performed for Gods glory. He suffered the loss of no rewards....He was saved. But "barely" if I might use that term.

Yes, I disagree. Mainly on the grounds of there not being any passages that speak of it. Life is fellowship really. You really cannot have one without the other.

John links the two - so if they can be separate then I would think there would be a passage that would speak to that.

1Jo 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

When we read passages such as 1 Corinthians 3, we have to do a LOT of interpretation to come to the conclusion that there can be life without fellowship.

 

[Nathan]

One thing I should add is we can see how death comes from lack of fellowship when we see the death of Christ.

He did not die until fellowship with the Father was cut off.

Mar 15:34-37
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “Behold, he is calling Elijah.” And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.” And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last.

 

[Cygnus]

Typical of how others respond. Twist my words into saying something I did not say. Read what I wrote again and you will see that I did not say that OSAS teaches that we should throw our cross on the ground and deny Christ. If you'd like I can search CFnet and find posts where I asked point blank if a saved person turned and denied Christ and began to worship Satan if he/she would remains saved, the answer I got was, "Yes." There are at least two instances when I did this and both times I got the same answer.

What I did say was that what I hear OSAS teach is that I can deny Christ, throw my cross on the ground, worship Satan, and so on and I will be saved anyway.

In my mind, spending eternity with Christ but not in fellowship with Him would be a living hell.

Sometimes it's difficult to understand entirely what a person means in such short post.
Often when I hear that argument present it is in a derogatory fashion. Almost as if it's the norm.

Can a believer turn completely away from Christ and still be saved? I believe the answer is yes. I've explained why before. If you would like I'll explain it to you.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, I disagree. Mainly on the grounds of there not being any passages that speak of it. Life is fellowship really. You really cannot have one without the other.

You disagree because you MUST disagree.

 

[Nathan]

You disagree because you MUST disagree.

How so? Do you agree with me? Is it because you must?

 

[Cygnus]

How so? Do you agree with me? Is it because you must?

Nathan, please get back to the OP. I'm not going to dance around with you on this issue.

How much is enough?

 

[chessman]

I agree with Paul is why I posted that passage.

Galatians 5:19-21, 24 (ESV) Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. ​

Do you believe Paul had a reason for switching from "you" to "those" in his warning? I do.

Do you believe those who belong to Christ Jesus have put the desire to do these fleshly thing to death?

If yes, Do you believe the Spirit of God did the washing of fleshly desires in those that belong to Christ or was it the person that did the washing?

 

[Nathan]

Galatians 5:19-21, 24 (ESV) Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. ​

Do you believe Paul had a reason for switching from "you" to "those" in his warning? I do.

Do you believe those who belong to Christ Jesus have put the desire to do these fleshly thing to death?

If yes, Do you believe the Spirit of God did the washing of fleshly desires in those that belong to Christ or was it the person that did the washing?

I do believe he had a reason.

Yes and no, for your second question.

I'm not sure how to answer your third question, because I do not know what you mean by washing of fleshly desires.

As far as the reason Paul wrote it, he was dealing with a church who believed in Christ, but were constantly being tempted to leave the faith.

Paul's intention was to let them know how they must think in order to see what path they are walking.

Just like he stated in no uncertain terms before, in chapter 3, the people who do not walk in the faith are not going to inherit the kingdom - whether it be from trying to add to Christ's work, or disregard it by serving sin.

God set us free in Christ, and those who turn away from that freedom are turning away from God and His life.

 

[chessman]

I do believe he had a reason.
...
As far as the reason Paul wrote it, he was dealing with a church who believed in Christ, but were constantly being tempted to leave the faith.

When he used the personal pronoun ("you", plural) he was referring to the Galatian people who lived by the Spirit. He choose to switch to "those" for the reason that he was switching between two opposing parties. Conflating the two opposing parties in this verse is a mistake.

"in narration, when either two persons or two parties are alternately placed in opposition to each other and the discourse turns from one to the other"
http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm

Yes and no, for your second question.

By what criteria do you decide when the answer is yes versus no?

I'm not sure how to answer your third question, because I do not know what you mean by washing of fleshly desires.

I mean this:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Parallel with:

Galatians 5:19-24 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are sexual immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, things which I am telling you in advance, just as I said before, that the ones who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh together with its feelings and its desires. ​

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

How much is enough? That is a question for those that believe we merit or earn salvation. How much "good" must we do?
For the OSNAS posters.....How much good works, merit, following Christ must we do to remain in salvation?

Do we need to do one act of "good" a day? 20 acts of good a week? 1,000 acts of good a month? What's the number?

It's not a how much kind of thing but a loyality kind of thing. I'm trying to remember the verses or at least their context so I can look them up, (might be in the Old Testiment), but I know I've read something along the lines that is a person is wicked but turns to God, repents, and then becomes rightous, then that person's wickedness doesn't count against them in God's eyes. But on the other hand if a rightous person becomes wicked, their previous acts of rightousness no longer count in their favor.

For an example of these consider Saul who chased Christians to put them in prison and held murderous threats to Christians, then received a blinding call from Jesus. Saul changed even in name to Paul who sought to promote Jesus's good news, started up churches and sent letters and visits to those churches to make sure they were still healthy.

A second example can be looked at the first king of Israel. King Saul. At first he is described as humble and he is anointed by God through a prophet, to be the first king of Israel. However, several missteps later God removes His blessings on Saul. The history of this I think is in 1 Kings, and they explain how King Saul turns away from God.

From this kind of reasoning it's not an amount of good deeds. It's an either or kind of sitution. Either your following God, or your not. Moment by moment, day by day, we have opportunities to follow God's teachings. To either act on or ignore. We also have many more trying tests like King Saul had, to show if we will wait for God, trust God, or act honorably.

It is for our missteps that Israel had sacrifices for their sins. We can be thankful that for the same missteps, we have Jesus's sacrifice for our sins. But we are still either following Jesus, being faithful, and having faith; or we are losing that faith in Jesus.

As I understand the concepts that would be more accurate from the OSNAS figurings.