How to be saved.....

[Windsong]

Well it beats battling over politics. (Just kidding). I've learned a lot from JLB presenting his views on the meaning of various Bible passages. As I could potentially from yourself. In the Theological debate section of this forum, you're gonna get disagreement (and agreements) on various Bible passage's meanings. If we all agreed, it wouldn't mean we were all Biblically sound. We could all be wrong.

What you can't see, however, is the many posts he and others make that present a Biblical passage or logical argument based upon them in a way I've never considered. To me, that's called learning Truth.

It's always helpful though, if the discussions progress with reasonable/relevant Bible cross references, logical arguments and answers to reasonable questions. When people will not participate with additional relevant Bible passages or answer reasonable questions, it seems nauseating sure.
I could learn, for example, what answer you think God provided to David's question in Psalm 139 if you'd answer that question. Or why you think Paul told us the final punishment of the wicked is eternal destruction "away from the presence of God". Etc.


Okay. I prefer a broader theological scope to include what the Sovereign told Paul and John concerning His Final Judgment upon the wicked.


How do you know that to be true, if all you know comes from Genesis 1 or Got Questions? Should you not consider Scriptures that teach that our Sovereign God could very well be Sovereign enough to one day destroy all evil "away from His presence"?


Yep. The beginning AND the end.


Correct.

Psalm 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is set high; I cannot prevail against it.​

Which is why I asked you twice for God's answer to David's question in verse 7.

Psalm 139:7 Where I can go from your Spirit, or where can I flee from your presence? ​

Yep or the penalty (2nd death) of the wicked away from the Omniscient.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, ​

There is no question people learn from coming at a theological topic from different perspectives. However, nothing can be gleaned when one side does not recognize the omnipresent , sovereign, omnipotent, omni-genesis characteristics of the one God both sides are intending to discuss. God's is a Holy Spirit. His presence does not stop at Hell. Hell cannot keep God out. God created Hell and all its characteristics that are believed in. Hell is sourced from God. When God is sovereign and creator of all things for all time there is no place God cannot be. Because all things "be", because God made them to be.

It isn't an argument. It is God. Arguing God cannot be in Hell is not arguing the God of the Bible and his sovereignty.
Just as what cannot be learned from those that argue against eternal salvation is how to be saved.

 

[Windsong]

I would have to see which scripture you are referring to.

My opinion is, based on your question is: sheep believe in the Shepherd.

Which came first? The shepherd believing in the sheep? Or the sheep believing in the shepherd?

 

[chessman]

His presence does not stop at Hell.

Not according to the Bible (In Psalms or in Paul's teachings).

You have a perfect opportunity here to show what Theology you've learned:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 and to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

How can the penalty of eternal destruction NOT be "away from the presence of the Lord"? Was the Paul wrong and you're right?

Arguing God cannot be in Hell is not arguing the God of the Bible and his sovereignty.

Says who. You should address what Paul says.

Your opinion stated here is not only in violation of this forum's debate rules (for numerous reasons not the least of which it has no Scriptural support in it) it directly contradicts Paul's teachings on the subject (which I've asked you to address my last time). If you leave my questions unanswered, your 'case' is nothing more than your opinion. The only Scripture you posted was David's questions about himself and ironically him acknowledging that God's ways are to complex for him to comprehend.

They say absolutely nothing about God's presence (or lack thereof) in Hell. But Paul does in 2 Thess 1:7-9.

 

[Windsong]

Its always interesting to read how a person thinks, who is obsessed with the idea that they can lose their salvation.
Once this spiritual infection sets it, all Grace is gone from them, all blood atonement, all Jesus on a cross as the way to the Father is long gone, and everything they write about has to do with earning salvation or personally trying to keep themselves saved.
Everything about what you write is pointing out that you are so "fallen from Grace" that its really quite a wonder.
You give Jesus and the Cross and the blood atonement credit for exactly NOTHING, as for you , JLB,...its ALL about works and works and deeds and effort to keep yourself saved.
Everything you write is just the most self-righteous theology that you can possibly twist a verse to try to prove.

Or, they were not in grace to begin with. Remember the passage in the bible wherein disciples who would not hear the word departed Jesus companions? And of them it was said they did this because they were not one with the apostles of Christ.
There is not a single passage in the message of Jesus that tells us we can be unsaved. Imagine all that is involved with regeneration of a sinner into a new grace embraced creation of God through Jesus Christ. Now imagine any passage existing that instructs how to undo all that God set into motion by his will and divine providence to come to fruition in the first place.
It doesn't exist. No one who is in Christ can choose to surpass God's will for them and throw Christ off. No one can be reverse their rebirth.
The doctrine of sinner imagines through hubris , ego, and pride, that the egoism and prideful mind is able to work its way to Heaven having saved its own soul. And as a consequence of that ideology, like unto laboring in the flesh to earn a living, one can conversely work to lose that salvation earned. And the ultimate reward of Heaven. As with the flesh, one can work to lose all they earned through their labors by working at being lazy and reprobate. Both allegory are rendered from the kingdom of the flesh. That's the realm of the lord of this world.
That is not the truth of the Lord of Heaven who died to this world so as to deliver the eternal message there is more. And his blood paved the way if we only believe in the grace of the Father who sent Himself to deliver the message.

That doctrine of works that teaches itself able to render that eternal message edited according to fleshly hubris, egoism and prideful ideology, is damned. That is all there is to it. Lucifer is the angel of the power of the air, the intellect, the light bearer. Lucifer's kingdom is in what we think of ourselves in this life. And that's why it is a kingdom built on powdered bones and rotting flesh.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is the complete sentence Jesus sated about those who he would give eternal life to.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

OK, thanks. There is nothing in v.27 that leads anyone to think from v.28 that one who has been given eternal life could EVER perish. And no one has shown such a notion from either of these 2 verses.

We easily see that v.27 is a description of believers, called "His sheep".
We also easily see that v.28 is a statement about eternal security, since those given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Can sheep who do not follow him become lost?

Not a relevant question. The only relevant question from these 2 verses is this:
Can anyone who has been given eternal life ever perish? That's the real question.

• hear My voice,
• and I know them,
• and they follow Me.

• And I give them eternal life,

JLB

And, of course, there is zero reason to assume that v.27 speaks of the criteria for receiving eternal life, based on ALL the many verses that speak of possessing (being given) eternal life on the basis of BELIEVING in Christ.

Here's the point that seems to be rejected, yet is reality:
Even a believer who becomes "lost" still possesses eternal life, because there are NO verses that say that eternal life can be lost, taken away, etc.

AND, Jesus was as clear as He could be about the result of being given etenal life. The person shall NEVER PERISH.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are welcome.
There must be a denomination that instructs in such things because I've run across quite a few people that don't trust they are saved for all time. Instead they think they have to walk on egg shells through life in order to keep their salvation. As if they can labor and achieve salvation themselves. I don't quite get where they ran across that in the writings in the bible. That's why I think maybe it is a denomination thing.

It's a theological thing, and spans a number of denominations. Lutherans, a derivative of the RCC, Church of Christ, and many (all?) of the charismatics believe that salvation can be lost. Sad.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said to another poster:
"He's not going to ask me that question."

Well, that kinda misses the point because Jesus did say those words.

Maybe you missed my point.

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

You see, I DO what He tells me to do.

It seems to me that we should take heed and do what he said. Or is this nothing more than works salvation?

Of course we should take heed to ALL that He commands. But NOT for salvation. If heeding all His commands, then yes, it would be a works salvation system. Just like the condemned Pharisee religion.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Now that Jesus has ascended to heaven and has given the responsibility to make Disciples to those He has entrusted this task, then it's up to those who have been appointed as Pastor's or Shepherds to go after those who have wandered off from the truth.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.

• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, and must turn back to Him or be lost; lose their soul in death.


JLB

Wow, more personal commentary and personal opinion. You quote a verse, then you frame it in your own words, your own way.

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
Of Course ,JLB, He loves all mankind and is patient for ALL to come to believe in Him while we are alive.. But at the GWT Judgement unbelievers are judged and separated from Him.

And believers are PROMISED that they will never perish.....John 10:28.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers.

But we all know that isn't even the issue.

It's one who keep believing that receives the gift of eternal life, but who HAVE, as in POSSESS, eternal life. And we have 4 verses in John that establish the FACT that whoever believes HAS eternal life.
John 3:15,16 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Anyone who denies that one possesses eternal life WHEN one believes simply denies the truth of Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

His Sheep who follow Him for a while, then become lost are sinners in need of repentance.

Where is the text that actually presents a picture of a sheep that quits following Jesus, the Great shepherd?

If there aren't any, your statement is irrelevant to biblical discussion.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

Thanks for the passage that actually refutes your claims about sheep. The point here is that the shepherd goes after His sheep and brings them back home. This is a perfect analogy of a strayed sheep getting home (to heaven).

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Here, we have "sinner", not a sheep.

Jesus shifts to direct speech and gives us the point.

A person can indeed belong to Christ, then later become lost.

Yet, what is the whole point of Luke 15:4-7? That the sheep is returned home. Not cast into a fire for stupidity for getting lost. Which kinda seems to be your kind of theology. Anyone stupid enough to quit following Jesus gets casts into the lake of fire for their stupidity.

This person who has become lost must repent and turn back to Him of lose His soul.

Where did this notion of 'losing his soul' come from, since cleraly NOT from Luke 115:4-7? Is this just something made up on the spur?

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

Nope. The parable shows that the lost sheep gets home SAFELY, because of the Good Shepherd.

Clearly NOT because the sheep found a compass and figured out a way to get home on his own efforts.

 

[FreeGrace]

I would have to see which scripture you are referring to.

My opinion is, based on your question is: sheep believe in the Shepherd.

Yet, everyone knowledgeable about sheep know they are among the stupidest of animals, and get lost easily. Because they are easily distsracted. Hm. Just like humans.

But the Bible is clear; the sheep are brought home SAFELY because of the shepherd, not because of the sheep.

That's eternal security. We stay saved because He keeps us saved. John 10:28 - a saved person possesses eternal life and therefore, shall never perish. Quite simple.

 

[FreeGrace]

Kidron said: ↑
Its always interesting to read how a person thinks, who is obsessed with the idea that they can lose their salvation.
Once this spiritual infection sets it, all Grace is gone from them, all blood atonement, all Jesus on a cross as the way to the Father is long gone, and everything they write about has to do with earning salvation or personally trying to keep themselves saved.

I guess you have no need to honestly address any points that I have made, from the scriptures, since you have already passed judgement upon me, that I have fallen from grace.

Thanks for your opinion.

He said a whole lot more as well. And ALL of it is true. There is NO grace in your theology. It's all about effort to stay saved.

Maybe an explanation of what "grace" means to you would help others understand your position, as he and I (probably others too) both see no grace in your theology. The word "grace" occurs 123 times in the NIV New Testament. It's an important word. What does it mean to you?

 

[FreeGrace]

So someone who was wandered from the truth and become lost, you tell them even though they are lost, not to worry, continue on your salvation is eternal?

Where would anyone get this from what gr8grace3 said:
"You may be up for some harsh discipline, a miserable existence,loss of eternal rewards and possible physical death (James 5:19-20)and SHAME at His Bema seat(1 John 2:28). 1 John 1:9 and get back in fellowship with The Lord Jesus Christ."

Do these words have no meaning for you?

How is that "not to worry"?

 

[FreeGrace]

Which came first? The shepherd believing in the sheep? Or the sheep believing in the shepherd?

Very interesting and thought provoking question!!

 

[MarkT]

Yes, eternal life in Jesus Christ means exactly that. Eternal. If we could do something to lose our salvation, we could achieve salvation on our own too. That's not the case. It all began with God's grace. And Jesus sealed the deal with the blood of the lamb.


John 6:39
and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose no thing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.

Jesus told us what to do for life ie. love God, do unto others, follow him. It's not so much a question of doing; We know what to do. It's a question of knowing his word and not doing what he said; that's what makes a man's house fall.

Like Jesus said, “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? 47 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

 

[Windsong]

Not according to the Bible (In Psalms or in Paul's teachings).

You have a perfect opportunity here to show what Theology you've learned:

Why continue to teach what I've learned when what is learned and truth is denied as truth? Gleaned from the words of God's own Holy Spirit.

I've taken perfect opportunity to show what theology exists by God's will and word.
It is not my responsibility when those facts in bible scripture are denied, reworked, or ignored.

The misunderstanding of being absent from God is the issue it seems.

The soul is born from God.
When God breathed into the Adam's nostrils the Adam became a living soul. That creation reality continues to this day. Our souls are given to us from God. “The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”
That which gives can also take away. The unrepentant sinner that is separated from God in the grave ceases to exist as a soul. They are as that soul that once belonged to A Person, does not exist anymore because it is not brought into the kingdom of God as A Person redeemed through God's grace.

God created everything that is from himself, even a male pronoun is not appropriate to describe what is a sacred, eternal, unfathomable to human consciousness and intellect, holy spirit. Therefore, there is no place created from God that God can not be.
It is unfortunate you ignore David's observations through his intimate relationship and understanding of the Father through council he received from the Father.
I'll not discuss this with you further. The definition of insanity in this life being in synopsis as, repeating the same behavior expecting a different result.
When a Christian says they believe the bible is the word of God and then do not believe the words within the word of God, they are not about intellectual honesty and apologetic discourse.

God inspired king David, David wrote the Psalms, the bible records it, and that's it. The Holy Spirit taught Psalm 139 and those verses 7-10.
It matters not to me that you don't accept them.

This is why I found it a fascinating relationship in posts between you and JLB. One common characteristic present in both members posts back and forth on those topics I've read discussed between the two here in this brief time is, regardless of what is written in scripture and as Christians believe is then a fact of God's words , the protagonist/antagonist position appears to precede the debate posts. Which is natural in a classical intellectually honest debate in itself.

However, in the case of theology when what is written is first agreed to be the inspired word of God, arguing what is written is not what is meant by God is something else.

I once lurked at a religious forum. It was eclectic in that it permitted all persons, even agnostics and atheists and pagans, to join. Every now and then two members who were known in the agnostic section of the community would enter into the Christian religious boards and assume the platform as Christians debating the bible. One would take the protagonist post. The other the antagonist. The rule sets would surround the theological topic under discussion. Baptism, grace of God, Hell, Rapture, and so forth.

If a new member entered in and was not familiar with the few agnostic members who would commence with this profile from time to time, they'd become alarmed at the tenor of the discussions.As was evident in their replies. While the agnostic member participants engaged in such a way intending to throw a monkey wrench into the community atmosphere of the Christians there. And as an invitation for the actual Christians to interject and pick a side in those debates. All these interactions were designed by the agnostics and the atheists as vehicles of discord. Those atheists which would participate from time to time too and assuming that same profile as their agnostic brethren, were on the same road of intent. To muck with the actual faithful members in Christ. And as reward watch the emotional roller coaster that ensued in them as they strove to defend the Christian position and word of God, and lead the christian actor that was actually either agnostic or atheist, back to the path of righteous understanding.

I haven't thought of those members or that site in years till now. I wonder where they got to.


Psalm 139 Is king David's affirmation regarding God's omnipresence. The Psalms themselves are traditionally understood and taught as being set forth to David by the Holy Spirit. Which is why the Psalms are sometimes referred to as Wisdom Literature.

1 O Jehovah, thou hast searched me, and known [me].
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising; Thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou searchest out my path and my lying down, And art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, But, lo, O Jehovah, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, And laid thy hand upon me.
6 [Such] knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, And thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall overwhelm me, And the light about me shall be night;
12 Even the darkness hideth not from thee, But the night shineth as the day: The darkness and the light are both alike [to thee].
13 For thou didst form my inward parts: Thou didst cover me in my mother's womb.
14 I will give thanks unto thee; For I am fearfully and wonderfully made: Wonderful are thy works; And that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My frame was not hidden from thee, When I was made in secret, [And] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, [Even] the days that were ordained [for me], When as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! How great is the sum of them!
18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: When I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: Depart from me therefore, ye bloodthirsty men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, And thine enemies take [thy name] in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O Jehovah, that hate thee? And am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: They are become mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: Try me, and know my thoughts;
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.


For my part I will no longer respond to your posts. If the bible doesn't lead you I am not worthy of thinking I can do more.

 

[chessman]

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, and must turn back to Him or be lost; lose their soul in death.

The truth that's clear is that even a Christian brother can indeed have misfortune, suffering or become lost "sick" by wandering from the truth and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance and The Father's discipline. And the elders of the church can participate with God through their faithful prayers, laying on of hands and anointing of oil; thus participating in the will of The Father in turning back the misfortune, suffering or the sickly to Him. Thus saving the lost misfortunate, suffering or sickly from lose of their soul in the 1st death. What's equally clear is that either with or without the elder's faithful prayers, a brother is a brother. And God will raise him up (even if He has to put him down to do it).

James 5:13-14 Is anyone among you suffering misfortune? He should pray. Is anyone cheerful? He should sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the elders of the church and they should pray over him, anointing him with olive oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins he [a brother] will be forgiven.​

It is blatantly obvious that James is talking about praying for physical misfortune suffering, sick and dying (their 1st death, not their 2nd) brothers in the church (for whatever reason they are misfortuned, suffering or sick).

Just as obvious as the fact that you cannot pray another un-repentant lost person into (or back into under your soteriology) salvation against their will or God's will. Our effective prayers are participating with God's work, to be sure (including God disciplinary actions upon His people, suffering/famine, sickness and even dying). That's James' point. He says zero about praying or anointing a lost person into salvation.

But either way (with our prayers or without them) The Father's will is done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick ...James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous person accomplishes much.​

...

Do you think the prayers of a righteous person for an unrighteousness person accomplishes salvation?

 

[chessman]

I've taken perfect opportunity to show what theology exists by God's will and word.

If the bible doesn't lead you I am not worthy of thinking I can do more.

Will David be in Hell?

 

[Windsong]

Will David be in Hell?

That is for God to judge.
Even if a soul no longer exists as what was once A Person, that the soul was from the Father means the essences that were the A Persons soul returns to the Father. The person no longer exists, but the "ingredients" that made that soul can never be separated from their source, the Father, no matter, pun intended, what.
A Person being dead no longer exists. What was the soul given into A Person by God at birth is destroyed, no longer exists, when A Person died unable, unwilling, to re-alize their source through which they came to be. However, the Father, that was the particulates making up that soul the Father created to give to A Person return to God. Because they are of God the creator of all that is, was, or ever shall be.
This is why the Holy Spirit instructed David to understand that in Psalm 139 and particularly verses 7-8. Where can "I" go that the holy spirit is not there? "I" am, that "I" am. I am created what I am. Is the source for what I am. And what David was. God is omnipresent. There is no-where eternal source of all things presence cannot be. Because everything that be is God first.

edited to interject more clarity to my point.

 

[chessman]

I'll not discuss this with you further.

Yes, there's always the option to answering people's question.