Bible Study I Just Can't Seem to Figure This Out

[HeIsRisen2018]

If the Bible says that all those who believe in Jesus and confess Him as their Lord and Savior shall receive eternal life and never die, then why does it also speak of those same people "sleeping" in their Graves until Christ returns? And if the saved don't automatically go to Heaven, then why did Jesus promise the thief that he would join Him that day in paradise? Especially since I recently learned that He descended into Hell help the lost.

 

[Bull of the Woods]

That's a good set of questions. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paraphrasing.
Yet it is said of believers that die that they are sleeping or have fallen asleep. I think their spiritual selves immediately go to be with Christ and as a picture to describe the case their bodies are said to be sleeping. The resurrection consists of their bodies reconstituting in a glorified eternal condition and their spirits reuniting with their bodies.

But someone may blow what I just wrote out of the water.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

That's a good set of questions. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paraphrasing.
Yet it is said of believers that die that they are sleeping or have fallen asleep. I think their spiritual selves immediately go to be with Christ and as a picture to describe the case their bodies are said to be sleeping. The resurrection consists of their bodies reconstituting in a glorified eternal condition and their spirits reuniting with their bodies.

But someone may blow what I just wrote out of the water.

I really like that answer and I think I will personally go with that one.

 

[for_his_glory]

You have to take John 3:13 for what it says and not what man has said for years even though it sounds nice. No one goes straight up to heaven when they die.

Eternal life in the New Jerusalem there is no more death, Rev 21:4, as for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. 1 John 3:2 we know not what we will look like when we are caught up to Christ other than we will be as He is in all His glory.

The theif was only promised eternal life in paradise when Jesus returns as he received Jesus as Lord and Savior on that particular day.

Jesus never went down to hell to preach as scripture says He went to preach to the spirits in prison. When Jesus laid in the tomb for three days his body was dead, but His spirit was very much alive. In 1 Peter 3:19 it says Jesus being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison. The spirits in prison that Jesus went to preach to are those angels that are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. These angels are separate from the third Satan gathered with him as these angels bound in chains kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:5-7.

These angels are those found in Genesis 6:1-3 that have been bound and chained in prison ever since until the day of judgement. Jesus was making show of them openly, triumphing over them in it, Colossians 2:13-15. This means that those who come to Jesus their sin is blotted out having spoiled these angels (principalities and power) who caused men to sin and that they too will be judged and cast into the lake of fire reserved for Satan and his angels.

 

[for_his_glory]

hello

Hi Toothy and welcome to CF

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Hi Toothy and welcome to CF

Umm,.. he isn't new lol don't worry I made the same mistake though. Let's just say he's a friend of Papa Zoom's. *wink* *wink* LOL!

 

[JLB]

If the Bible says that all those who believe in Jesus and confess Him as their Lord and Savior shall receive eternal life and never die, then why does it also speak of those same people "sleeping" in their Graves until Christ returns? And if the saved don't automatically go to Heaven, then why did Jesus promise the thief that he would join Him that day in paradise? Especially since I recently learned that He descended into Hell help the lost.

These are great questions from a hungry heart.



If you would please post the scriptures you are referring to, we can discuss them.


Blessings to you.


JLB

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

These are great questions from a hungry heart.



If you would please post the scriptures you are referring to, we can discuss them.


Blessings to you.


JLB

Sure. And I was going to add too that although I agree with Bull of The Woods on what the Bible actually means, does that mean that when Jesus returns that there will be a bunch of soulless zombies walking around? Lol anyway first of all here's the verse about the thief on the cross.





Luke 23:43 "Jesus answered him, truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."




And here is the verse about the dead being asleep in their graves that for_his_glory had already (thankfully) quoted for me.




John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."




So the question is which is correct? Not to mention that there is this important verse.




John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that whoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."




Doesn't that mean that those who believe in Him will not die at all or be "asleep" in their graves?

 

[Tessa]

It means they will not suffer the second death, but will live with the Lord for eternity after the resurrection of the saved.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

It means they will not suffer the second death, but will live with the Lord for eternity after the resurrection of the saved.

That's a very good interpretation of it too.

 

[JLB]

Sure. And I was going to add too that although I agree with Bull of The Woods on what the Bible actually means, does that mean that when Jesus returns that there will be a bunch of soulless zombies walking around? Lol anyway first of all here's the verse about the thief on the cross.





Luke 23:43 "Jesus answered him, truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."




And here is the verse about the dead being asleep in their graves that for_his_glory had already (thankfully) quoted for me.




John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."




So the question is which is correct? Not to mention that there is this important verse.




John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that whoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."




Doesn't that mean that those who believe in Him will not die at all or be "asleep" in their graves?

Yes, we who are in Christ, when we die go to be with the Lord in heaven.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
2 Corinthians 5:6-9


Jesus ascended after He descended into the heart of the earth, taking the Old Testament saints with Him to heaven, who were believers.


7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:7-10

Abraham’s Bosom is where the Old Testament saints were preserved in paradise before Christ.



JLB

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Yes, we who are in Christ, when we die go to be with the Lord in heaven.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
2 Corinthians 5:6-9


Jesus ascended after He descended into the heart of the earth, taking the Old Testament saints with Him to heaven, who were believers.


7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:7-10

Abraham’s Bosom is where the Old Testament saints were preserved in paradise before Christ.



JLB

So are you saying that you disagree and we don't go to sleep in our graves and we are joined with Jesus immediately after death? I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure if I got your response correctly.

 

[Edward]

I think it's possible that, (since we are spirit-soul-body), it is prolly the soul sleeping in the grave and the spirit has gone to be with God. The Lord will not let the untransfigured souls into heaven before they are transfigured, and He is going to do everyone at once is what scripture says.

In the souls pre-transfigured state, it contains the sin nature so must sleep for now.

And the spirit contains the consciousness and is with God.
Or so it seems to me.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

I think it's possible that, (since we are spirit-soul-body), it is prolly the soul sleeping in the grave and the spirit has gone to be with God. The Lord will not let the untransfigured souls into heaven before they are transfigured, and He is going to do everyone at once is what scripture says.

In the souls pre-transfigured state, it contains the sin nature so must sleep for now.

And the spirit contains the consciousness and is with God.
Or so it seems to me.

Okay that makes things even more confusing lol because I though the spirit and the soul was exactly the same thing.

 

[JLB]

So are you saying that you disagree and we don't go to sleep in our graves and we are joined with Jesus immediately after death? I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure if I got your response correctly.

Yes.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Jesus returns at the end of the age with those who have died and gone to heaven and are awaiting their new resurrected bodies.


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

• For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Those who “sleep” in Jesus, are the bodies of the dead in Christ, as further clarified by Paul in verse 16.

• the dead in Christ will rise first.

JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, we who are in Christ, when we die go to be with the Lord in heaven.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
2 Corinthians 5:6-9


Jesus ascended after He descended into the heart of the earth, taking the Old Testament saints with Him to heaven, who were believers.


7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:7-10

Abraham’s Bosom is where the Old Testament saints were preserved in paradise before Christ.



JLB

I have to respectfully disagree with you. No one has ever gone up to heaven nor has Jesus ever taken anyone from the grave up with Him when He ascended into heaven. This goes against that of John 3:13; John 5:28, 29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

In 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 Paul is speaking about flesh and Spirit. When we are in the flesh we are absent from the fellowship with God just as Adam lost fellowship when he disobeyed God's command. When we are in the Spirit, yet being in this body, we are present with the Lord in fellowship with Him. Below I have given an explanation of each verse as it reads.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8
vs. 1 is speaking about the tabernacle of God that is within us as we are the Temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17, and when we physically die we will have eternal life with Him in the New Jerusalem
vs. 2 we desire to be in our new home, the New Jerusalem, that will be ushered down from heaven at the end of days, Rev 21
vs. 3 we are clothed in Gods righteousness as we will not be found naked, Isaiah 61:10
vs. 4 We are the Temple of God, but yet we do have burdens as we still live in this fleshly body waiting for immortality when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
vs. 5 basic as we have Gods Spirit dwelling in us as we need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh
vs. 6 we are confident knowing that if we are walking in the flesh we are absent from God because flesh and Spirit can not mix, Galatians 5:17
vs. 7 we walk by faith, which is Christ Jesus as we seek those things from above and not the things of this world, Colossians 3:1-4
vs. 8 we are confident if we are walking in the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) we are no longer following the lust of the flesh, 1 John 2:16

Jesus never descended into hell. Many believe Jesus descended into hell as they base this according to the Apostles creed, but scripture does not say this. Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; When Jesus laid in the tomb for three days his body was dead, but His spirit was very much alive. The spirits in prison that Jesus went to preach to are those angels that are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. These angels are separate from the third Satan gathered with him as these angels bound in chains kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:5-7. These angels are those found in Genesis 6:1-3 that have been bound and chained in prison ever since until the day of judgement. Jesus was making show of them openly, triumphing over them in it, Colossians 2:13-15. This means that those who come to Jesus their sin is blotted out having spoiled these angels (principalities and power) who caused men to sin and that they too will be judged and cast into the lake of fire reservered for Satan and his angels.

 

[Razeontherock]

If the Bible says that all those who believe in Jesus and confess Him as their Lord and Savior shall receive eternal life and never die, then why does it also speak of those same people "sleeping" in their Graves until Christ returns? And if the saved don't automatically go to Heaven, then why did Jesus promise the thief that he would join Him that day in paradise? Especially since I recently learned that He descended into Hell help the lost.

I don't think we know any of this.

Jesus didn't descend into hell to help the lost.

We do know that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Do we really know what that means?

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay that makes things even more confusing lol because I though the spirit and the soul was exactly the same thing.

It is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. It's the breath of God that makes us a living soul. The soul makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion.

 

[Razeontherock]

So are you saying that you disagree and we don't go to sleep in our graves and we are joined with Jesus immediately after death? I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure if I got your response correctly.

Yeah, the body won't be resurrected until the last day. Our spirit returns to God when we die regardless. Salvation, after death, is taught as "being present with the Lord," so it makes sense to think of this as our soul.
All this means we're a trinity! Made in God's image, who is also a Triune being.

Does that help?

 

[Razeontherock]

Okay that makes things even more confusing lol because I though the spirit and the soul was exactly the same thing.

Nope, spirit and soul are clearly two different things, per NT Scripture.