Bible Study I Just Can't Seem to Figure This Out

[Poor Old Spike]

..I believe that there are an awful lot of mysteries that we don't know and might not even ever know about Christianity.

Right, that's why you should always be wary of people who claim to know it all, like some cults and sects claim..
Jesus said-
"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things, so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?........I know where I came from and where I am going, but you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.....you are of this world, I am not of this world" (John 3:12,10:38,8:14,8:23)

 

[brujaq]

Amen! One thing here I find fascinating, that moment when you have Him as being "judged not guilty:" what happened then, and what did it look like?

The things we're told in Scripture about this very much seem to me like we're peering over the edge of what's knowable, whether by limitation of human language, or our own minds. What we do know is "all Judgment has been given unto the Son" now, but that wasn't the case when Jesus was on the Cross. When did that change? Did the Father Judge Jesus there in (some part of) hell? Did Jesus simply "have power to lay down His life and power to take it up again" as He told us? Is this all the same thing as taking "the keys of death and of hell," or was that a sequence of events?

I don't see how we could know those details now, but I do think it's important that Jesus faced all this, triumphed openly over it taking captivity captive and conquered anything we might have to face.

I agree RR, and we know Jesus was in great anguish in the garden that he sweat blood asking for another way until he was settled . We all have opinions .. I don't know how long except his flesh was dead 3 days and nights, but we know the moment he give up the ghost, the graves burst open , the temple veil was rent, but the whole Earth remained dark for about 3 hrs .. So through Jesus, God even knows hell inside and out for us 1st hand .. To say the stakes are high is an understatement of all time ..

 

[JohnDB]

Mount of Transfiguration anyone?

Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus...

"Abraham saw this day and was glad"

"We shall be transformed, in the twinkling of an eye"

 

[brujaq]

Mount of Transfiguration anyone?

Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus...

"Abraham saw this day and was glad"

"We shall be transformed, in the twinkling of an eye"

Awesome

 

[Razeontherock]

Mount of Transfiguration anyone?

Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus...

"Abraham saw this day and was glad"

"We shall be transformed, in the twinkling of an eye"

Yes please! I think that event debunks the idea of soul sleep.

 

[for_his_glory]

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. John 3:13


Of course John 3:13 was true at the time, before He was crucified, and was in the heart of the earth.

The Old Testament saints were in the heart of the earth called Abraham’s bosom, which was also called Paradise.

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, this day you will be with Me in paradise. Jesus didn’t ascend until the third day.

Jesus taught us about life after death for the Old Testament saint.

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead. Luke 16:19-31

Notice that Abraham nor the rich man nor Lazarus was “asleep” in a grave in the ground.

Furthermore, other things changed after He was crucified.



51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:51-53


Jesus spoke the truth in John 3:13 as well as everywhere else.

Paul did also.


There are saints who have died in heaven and they will return with Him when He comes.



JLB

So, you are saying the words of Christ are obsolete in John 3:13?

You do realize the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not an actual event, but a parable (teaching) Jesus taught about the choices we make before He returns. We either accept Him and are comforted and live an eternal life with Him or we reject Him and are cast into the torment of the lake of fire on the day of judgment.

Abraham's bosom is a term used in Luke 16:22 for a place of comfort as Abraham like everyone of faith has physically died and still sleep in their grave knowing they will be with God in the New Jerusalem on the day when Christ returns and calls all from their graves, John 5:28, 29.

Please show me the scripture where any saint has died in heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

Tartarus is where the disobedient spirits in chains that Jesus preached to were, that word is used for the very lowest part of hell, not peaceful sheol. How did Jesus do this if He didn't descend into hell? Either way, it's there in Scripture.

Sheol is the Hebrew word for the underground.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Tartarus, Sheol, Hades, Hell all mean under the ground. This includes all who have died and are asleep in their graves and the Spiritual realm where those disobedient angels are kept unto the day of judgement.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hell, Tartarus was reserved for spirits or angels who were disobedient, in the time of Noah, which is were Jesus went to preach to them.


18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20

• He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah

The context links these spirits who were disobedient to the time of Noah.


Peter clarifies this in his second letter -

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

• if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness,

Hell here is Tartarus.
.


JLB

I agree with this as I have even said the same thing as it all means under ground. I do believe that where these angels are bound is not literal as a grave one is laid in, but more of a spiritual realm one can not literally see.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes! I agree with this, right up to the last paragraph. Dead raised in conjunction with this, seen by many. Jesus didn't preach or help the lost in hell, (that we know of) he freed the OT Saints in sheol, aka Abraham's bosom or Paradise.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Nowhere in these two verses does it say Jesus took these saints up to heaven. It says they went into the city and appeared to many. The purpose of these saints rising from their grave is the same as Jesus raising Lazarus from his grave (tomb) to show that the Son of God might be glorified thereby, John 11:1-45. Other words meaning that these are they who testified of Christ within their witness of showing themselves alive again that others would believe on Him. They never were taken up to heaven, but only rose and went into the city.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yup, pretty clear. Our soul does not include action as previously stated, action is what our bodies do. Our bodies being in the grave awaiting resurrection, and our Spirit returning to God who gave it, does not automatically mean our soul ceases to exist, as previously claimed. We wouldn't know what happens to our soul if Scripture didn't tell us; nor do we really know if our soul and Spirit stay together ... a word study in Revelation to see if any of these passages use the word for soul might be interesting.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul also dies as the breath goes back to God who gave it. 1Corinthians Chapter 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.

 

[JohnDB]

Just a reminder...
Where discussion is good.
Hard Core Debate isn't so cool.
No one has perfect theology except for Jesus.
And this means that EVERYONE is wrong.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Boy, I'm starting to feel rather bad right now and guilty. I really didn't know that asking this question would cause such a debate.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes please! I think that event debunks the idea of soul sleep.

There is no such thing as soul sleep as only the Mormons believe in it.

 

[JohnDB]

Boy, I'm starting to feel rather bad right now and guilty. I really didn't know that asking this question would cause such a debate.

It's really not you.
God is a very personal God. What He reveals to one person may not be exactly what He has revealed to another. (God has his reasons)
And as such we all tend to feel like Jesus is our friend alone... like He talks to us special. Even though Jesus has billions of friends. And that is kinda unique in that Jesus makes every last one of us feel special to Him.

But in the meantime some people feel very strongly about their relationship and what they believe about Jesus. (To be expected really)
And so...those too busy arguing never seem to figure out that their debating opponent is just as much one of the believers as they are.

 

[JLB]

So, you are saying the words of Christ are obsolete in John 3:13?

Those are your words.

You will need to go through each scripture that I gave about the saints who are in heaven and come with Him when He returns, and address each and every one of them, because that is what I actually said.



JLB

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

It's really not you.
God is a very personal God. What He reveals to one person may not be exactly what He has revealed to another. (God has his reasons)
And as such we all tend to feel like Jesus is our friend alone... like He talks to us special. Even though Jesus has billions of friends. And that is kinda unique in that Jesus makes every last one of us feel special to Him.

But in the meantime some people feel very strongly about their relationship and what they believe about Jesus. (To be expected really)
And so...those too busy arguing never seem to figure out that their debating opponent is just as much one of the believers as they are.

Okay thanks, because I was starting to feel really bad and sorry that I started this topic in the first place. We're all God's children and He loves us all equally. Can't we all just learn to get along and love each other like I know He wants us to? I really don't like to see people arguing with one another. And I know for a fact that He doesn't either.

 

[WIP]

Okay thanks, because I was starting to feel really bad and sorry that I started this topic in the first place. We're all God's children and He loves us all equally. Can't we all just learn to get along and love each other like I know He wants us to? I really don't like to see people arguing with one another. And I know for a fact that He doesn't either.

Expressing differing points of view is not a bad thing and avoiding expressing differing views to just get along is not necessarily a good thing. JohnDB is not saying that we need to stop disagreeing. What he is saying is to watch HOW we express those views and to remember that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and we need to treat each other as Christ would want us to do and that is with kindness, respect, dignity, and love. One can have a different understanding without being snobbish about it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I feel it's time to walk away as I have given all I can to the discussion and only now repeating what I believe. Let everyone come into their own understanding and everyone have a good day and may God bless all of you.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Expressing differing points of view is not a bad thing and avoiding expressing differing views to just get along is not necessarily a good thing. JohnDB is not saying that we need to stop disagreeing. What he is saying is to watch HOW we express those views and to remember that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and we need to treat each other as Christ would want us to do and that is with kindness, respect, dignity, and love. One can have a different understanding without being snobbish about it.

That's just what I was going to get at. The fact that we are all brother and sisters in Christ. Sure we may bicker with each other sometimes, and even you and I have had our differences before, but deep down I believe that we all really love each other, we just need to learn to agree to disagree. That goes for me and you and for every single one of us on here since Jesus is the only one who knew how to do that perfectly.

 

[Razeontherock]

Sheol is the Hebrew word for the underground.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Tartarus, Sheol, Hades, Hell all mean under the ground. This includes all who have died and are asleep in their graves and the Spiritual realm where those disobedient angels are kept unto the day of judgement.

No argument from me about your generality, but the Greek words you list aren't synonymous. Greek is a very exacting language, and the different words are used to convey different concepts, more subtle than we have different English words for.
And usually a Hebrew word will have yet a different shade of meaning, even when they're translated the same, especially in a word-for-word version.