Jim Parker
Member
sigh......
The Lamb is Jesus.
Jesus is God.
God is omnipresent.
So, Jesus, THE LAMB, is omnipresent.
better?
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Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?
- Thread starter Royff
- Start date
The Lamb is Jesus.
Jesus is God.
God is omnipresent.
So, Jesus, THE LAMB, is omnipresent.
better?
chessman
Member
Yes, but still not a logically formed syllogism.
http://philosophyterms.com/syllogism/
Here’s the most famous valid syllogism in philosophy:
All men are mortal (major premise)
Socrates is a man (minor premise)
Socrates is mortal (conclusion)
Or
All persons of our Triune God are omnipresent
The Lamb of God is a person of our Triune God
Therefore, The Lamb of God is omnipresent
The major premise in the argument above must be true for this valid syllogism to be true. Is it Scriptrually true???
He [The Lamb of God] is not here, for He arose, just as He said.
Matthew 28:6aWas The Lamb of God present in the tomb?
Maybe the scribes of the Synoptic gospels intended to communicate something that has been lost in different version translations since the first century transcription.
Because otherwise there is direct contradiction in those writings between those scriptures that speak of perishing, and body and soul destruction in Hell due to God's action, and then the idea of eternal everlasting punishment without destruction of that suffering soul.
The Synoptic gospels are according to scholars dated to make Mark the first book written.
If eternal punishment in Hell is indeed eternal then that puts God's victory over sin as reported by Paul in 1 Corinthians into question. How can God have victory over evil if the place where evil people suffer for eternity are still suffering for eternity after God's victory?
1 Corinthians 15:28 (ESV)
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Whereas it is not possible to ignore Matthew 10:28. Though as we know it is possible to argue it does not say what it does say, even in the context of the surrounding scriptures in Matthew 10 that support all that is in verse 28 and its message. God can destroy body and soul in Hell.
Of course he can. He's God! Which is why the chapter speaks of that end unless someone repents and is saved so as to not be destroyed. But rather live for all time with God.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son , that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Maybe the scribes wrote the conflicting prophecies for the soul so that those who do follow Christ's voice can distinguish the difference when they first know God is love.
Jim Parker
Member
chessman
Member
Sure you can. Answer:
He is not here, for He arose, just as He said.
Matthew 28:6aWas The Lamb of God present in the tomb?
Papa Zoom
CF Ambassador
hmmmm,
A syllogism is a deductive argument cocsisting of two premises and one conclusion. It is called a categorical syllogism if all the propositions are categorical propositions.
b. Jesus is God. (This is the minor premise because it will lead to the conclusion)
c. Jesus is omnipresent.
I think that makes the syllogism work. What I'm not sure of is can a and b be exchanged? In other words, can b be the major premise making a the minor? I think it works both ways.
A syllogism is a deductive argument cocsisting of two premises and one conclusion. It is called a categorical syllogism if all the propositions are categorical propositions.
- Structure of the Syllogism – The propositions must contain a total of three terms. A synonym introduced into one of the propositions does not add another term into the syllogism.
b. Jesus is God. (This is the minor premise because it will lead to the conclusion)
c. Jesus is omnipresent.
I think that makes the syllogism work. What I'm not sure of is can a and b be exchanged? In other words, can b be the major premise making a the minor? I think it works both ways.
Jim Parker
Member
You have confused the absence of Jesus (the Word made flesh) in the tomb with the question of God's omnipresence.
And the statement to which I responded was "The Lamb is NOT present in Hell."
So we were not talking about Jesus being in the tomb but whether Jesus (The Lamb) was present in Hell and I provided you with the reference from Revelation which explicitly states that he was.
You have so confused and entangled the various ideas in your head that you have jumped the track and gone off in another direction.
I have answered the question concerning God's omnipresence and made the point that, Since Jesus is God, that He is omnipresent.
The empty tomb is an entirely different subject which you have confused with the original point I made.
So I still can't help you.
chessman
Member
No you didn’t provide the reference from Revelation which explicitly states that The Lamb was in Hell. You are confused about the location of these Holy angels and The Lamb’s return:
And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having eternal good-news to announce-as-good-news to the ones sitting on the earth— indeed, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,
Revelation 14:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:6&version=DLNTAre these three angels making announcement to the ones located on-the-earth or to the ones in Hell?
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Jim Parker
Member
Now you're muddying up the water even more!
Please try to stay on ONE topic at a time.
YOU said: "you didn’t provide the reference from Revelation which explicitly states that The Lamb was in Hell."
I quoted:
Rev 14:9-11
"Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
What place is described as being full of "fire and brimstone"?
Never mind
Since you are insisting that Christ and the Lamb, are not the same...
Please present to us the scripture that says the Lamb was in the tomb.
As I have shown from the scriptures, Christ dwells in those who are His, both in heaven and on earth.
While you at it, please show the scriptures that say the punishment, the torment and the fire are temporary.
JLB
Papa Zoom
CF Ambassador
Technically only the body was in the tomb. Jesus was the Lamb but that is just a metaphor.
chessman
Member
Never mind that your claim is that Rev 14 “explicitly states” The Lamb was in Hell when it most certainly does not explicitly state any such thing?
Never mind that the context does state where this torment occurs?
No you did not.
Edom, Israel and Sodom!
Yahweh has a sword; it is full of blood. It is covered with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams, for Yahweh has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in the land of Edom. And wild oxen shall go down with them, and steers with strong bulls. And their land shall be drenched with blood, and their soil shall be fattened with fat. For Yahweh has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution for the strife of Zion. And its streams shall be changed to pitch and its soil to sulfur, and its land shall become like burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall be in ruins; forever and ever there will be no one who passes through her.
Isaiah 34:6-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 34:6-10&version=LEB“Therefore prophesy, son of man, and you must say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Will you not realize on that day when my people Israel are dwelling in safety, and so you will come from your place, from the remote areas of the north, you and many people with you, horsemen all of them, a great crowd and a vast army, and you will advance against my people Israel like a cloud covering the land; it will be in the last days, and I will bring you against my land, so that the nations know me, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes, O Gog!”’ “Thus says the Lord Yahweh, ‘ Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by the hand of my servants the prophets of Israel who were prophesying in those days for years that I would bring you against them? And so then in that day, on the day of the coming of God against the land of Israel,’ declares the Lord Yahweh, ‘my rage will come up in my anger. And in my passion, in the fire of my wrath, I spoke that certainly on that day a great earthquake will be on the land of Israel. And the fish of the sea and the birds of the heaven and the animals of the field and all of the creeping things that creep on the earth and all of the humans who are on the surface of the earth will shake at my presence; and the mountains will be demolished, and the steep mountain sides will fall, and every wall on the earth will fall. And I will call against him in all of my mountains a sword,’ declares the Lord Yahweh, ‘ And the sword of each person will be against his brother. And I will execute justice with him with a plague and with blood and torrents of rain, and hailstones; fire and sulfur I will cause to fall on him and on his troops and on many peoples who are with him. And so I will exalt myself, and I will show myself holy, and I will make myself known before the eyes of many nations, and they will know that I am Yahweh.’”
Ezekiel 38:14-23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ezekiel 38:14-23&version=LEBAfter the sun had risen upon the earth and Lot had entered Zoar, Yahweh rained down from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh. And he looked down upon the surface of Sodom and Gomorrah, and upon the whole surface of the land, the plain. And he saw that, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a smelting furnace. So it was, when God destroyed the cities of the plain that God remembered Abraham and sent Lot out from the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.
Genesis 19:23-24,28-29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 19:23-24,28-29&version=LEBas Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEBRev 14 is a vision of the reaping of the living, breathing Beast worshippers on Earth, as explicitly stated, not about their torment in Hell:
And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the sound that I heard was like harpists playing on their harps. These are those who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were bought from humanity as first fruits to God and to the Lamb, and in their mouth a lie was not found; they are blameless. And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people, And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud, “Send out your sickle and reap, because the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe!” And the one seated on the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Revelation 14:1-2,4-6,15-16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:1-2,4-6,15-16&version=LEB“These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.”
Are the 140,000 following The Lamb wherever He goes also omnipresent, in your opinion?
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Jim Parker
Member
" He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "
Where are people and angels "tormented with fire and brimstone"?
In heaven?
[edited]
In hell?
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In hell
Jim Parker
Member
Yes it is true.
You are conflating the Physical body of Jesus of Nazareth with eternal God the Word Who is one of the three hypostases of the Trinity.
And nowhere in scripture does it say "The Lamb of God has risen."
John the Baptist called Jesus "the lamb of God" as a metaphor indicating that He would be the one "who takes away the sins of the world."
You are confusing those concepts.
And, no, the God-man, Jesus the Christ, was not present in the tomb on Sunday morning when the women came.
But God the Father, And the Son, and the Holy Spirit are ALL omnipresent at all times.
Jim Parker
Member
Jim Parker
Member
I believe it is proper to go from the general (in this case "God") to the Specific (In this case "Jesus").
IT might be restated as:
a. All persons of the Godhead/Trinity are omnipresent.
b. Jesus is a person of the Godhead/Trinity.
c. Jesus is omnipresent.
Or, since God the Trinity is omnipresent and Jesus is one of the three persons of God the Trinity, Jesus is, therefore, omnipresent.
The major premise is that God, Who is Trinity, is omnipresent.
But both ways "make sense."
Papa Zoom
CF Ambassador
That makes perfect sense to me. I took a syllogism "test" and got more of them wrong (deciding if they were valid or not). They all looked good to me! This one seems very straight forward.
stovebolts
Member
Yup, clear as mud lol.
John 16:10b
because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
Essentially, I am going to where I already am. Ha, there is something here that makes me chuckle lol.
Logic has its place, but the story is living and active. ;-)