Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[smaller]

If you're not sealed by God, you will be sealed by Satan (mark of the beast).

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

 

[HalleluYAH]

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

What's that mean to you?

 

[smaller]

These matters are slated for Gods Destruction, in EVERY believer:

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

And the children of the flesh will scream in fear. Such do NOT recognize the factual conditions of our PLANTING. And they BLINDLY think they are immune. The hypocrites will actually be the FIRST to go down in destruction (they all go "down like Frazier" and always have) into utter utter blinded darkness.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[reba]

Jesus was taken up to heaven in this verse as described in Acts 1.

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. Acts 1:1-3

...being seen by them during forty days.

Jesus remained with them, and was seen by them for 40 days and gave them commandments until the day He was taken up.


The Day Jesus was taken up to heaven -

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11


Do you know what the Lord Jesus, was doing just before He was taken up to heaven in their sight, here in verse 9?

Jesus was giving commands to His Apostles, and speaking to them about the kingdom.

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Acts 1:4-8


To Summarize -

Jesus was presented alive to His Apostles, and gave commandments to them, until the Day...

He was with them, being presented alive to them and giving them commandments, until the day... He was taken up to heaven.


He was still giving commandments here in verse 4, as He was seen by them, and received commandments from Him during the 40 days He was with Him, up until the day He was taken up.

I see nothing here in Acts 1 that He was taken up to Heaven, some time before, and came back, and then went up again.
This account shows us a continual time He was seen by them and gave them commandments, right up until the Day He was taken up to Heaven.

The Day He was taken up to heaven is described in Acts 1:9-11, not some time before.

Likewise He will come a second time, for salvation, for those who eagerly wait for Him. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

Jesus said to Mary dont touch Me I have not ascended... then some time later says to Thomas touch me...The plain Word of God says both statements ... We all need to fit our theology into the Scripture .. Not fit the scripture to our theology....

The point has been made the Scriptures are clear Jesus said to Mary touch Me not for i have not ascended.. And to Thomas touch Me..
I will accept the quoted Words of Christ as fact .....

 

[HalleluYAH]

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.

In the Greek text He said "Touch Me not", should read, "Don't hold Me up".

 

[Drew]

Why would you have to dig up Caiaphus, for him to see the Son of Man Coming in the clouds?

The challenge you face is this: we have Daniel 7 - a key Bible text that historians will tell you was very significant to the Jews of Jesus' day. In that text, we have a Son of Man character ascending, not descending, in triumph after a victory over the beasts to be seated as a heavenly king over all creation. And the text of Daniel 7 uses the "coming on the clouds" image to dente that ascent. It is not a return to earth, as required by rapture theology.

Combine this with a range of other texts that declare that a Jesus gets enthroned as a Universal King at Easter - a day when Caiaphus will certainly be alive - it is really quite clear: Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will live to see Jesus enthroned.

We don't have to take the frankly bizarre move of having to argue that "Caiaphus as resurrected from the grave" will see Jesus coming on the clouds. Instead, knowing what "coming on the clouds" means as a well-established Biblical metaphor, and how Jesus' resurrection and victory over death so clearly comprises the real meaning of the battle of the son of man against the beasts, we can discern what Jesus is saying: You, Caiaphus will live to see me vindicated, to see my victory over the true beast - death, and to see me installed as the world's real king.

Caiaphus knew full well that Jesus was describing the immediate future, not a second coming thousands of years in the future. Caiaphus would never tear his robes over a second coming when he didn't believe Jesus was anything more than a troublemaker.

Why, exactly, would Caiaphus get so upset when Jesus declares that Caiaphus will see Jesus "coming on the clouds"?

If you know Daniel 7, you will know that the son of man gets to share God' throne - something Caiaphus will see as profoundly blasphemous.

It cannot be emphasized enough - the tearing of the robe makes no sense if Jesus is understood to be talking about a second coming. If that is what Caiaphus understood Jesus to be saying, he would have laughed, or been confused. But he was angry - to "come on the clouds" is to claim to be the divine figure from Daniel 7. And that is something a monotheistic Jew like Caiaphus could not take.

 

[Drew]

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(Mar 13:26-27)

Every eye on earth see's him coming here.

I suspect you will rend your garment and cry "heresy", but I believe this prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus' own day. The problem with the futurist perspective is that you have to overlook Jesus' rather clear declaration:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [Matt 24:34, KJV]

I am puzzled that so many "futurists" seem to be able to rework this to:

Verily I say unto you, Hundreds of generations shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[JLB]

The challenge you face is this: we have Daniel 7 - a key Bible text that historians will tell you was very significant to the Jews of Jesus' day. In that text, we have a Son of Man character ascending, not descending, in triumph after a victory over the beasts to be seated as a heavenly king over all creation. And the text of Daniel 7 uses the "coming on the clouds" image to dente that ascent. It is not a return to earth, as required by rapture theology.

Combine this with a range of other texts that declare that a Jesus gets enthroned as a Universal King at Easter - a day when Caiaphus will certainly be alive - it is really quite clear: Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will live to see Jesus enthroned.

We don't have to take the frankly bizarre move of having to argue that "Caiaphus as resurrected from the grave" will see Jesus coming on the clouds. Instead, knowing what "coming on the clouds" means as a well-established Biblical metaphor, and how Jesus' resurrection and victory over death so clearly comprises the real meaning of the battle of the son of man against the beasts, we can discern what Jesus is saying: You, Caiaphus will live to see me vindicated, to see my victory over the true beast - death, and to see me installed as the world's real king.

Caiaphus knew full well that Jesus was describing the immediate future, not a second coming thousands of years in the future. Caiaphus would never tear his robes over a second coming when he didn't believe Jesus was anything more than a troublemaker.

Why, exactly, would Caiaphus get so upset when Jesus declares that Caiaphus will see Jesus "coming on the clouds"?

If you know Daniel 7, you will know that the son of man gets to share God' throne - something Caiaphus will see as profoundly blasphemous.

It cannot be emphasized enough - the tearing of the robe makes no sense if Jesus is understood to be talking about a second coming. If that is what Caiaphus understood Jesus to be saying, he would have laughed, or been confused. But he was angry - to "come on the clouds" is to claim to be the divine figure from Daniel 7. And that is something a monotheistic Jew like Caiaphus could not take.

So you are taken a metaphorical scripture from Daniel, to refute the clear and plain words of Jesus Christ?

Now wonder you don't believe Caiaphas and every one else will see the Son of Man coming... and all the world will mourn.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

What is it that makes all the tribes of the earth Mourn... if not at seeing the The Lord whom they rejected, as literally coming with power and great glory.

We are told the BRIGHTNESS of His coming will destroy the lawless one.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

That's pretty powerful and intense, to destroy the lawless one, the false christ, with the BRIGHTNESS of His coming.


Why wouldn't God the Father want every eye to see His Son coming and being presented as the Lord and Savior to all mankind.



JLB

 

[Drew]

Their walk or lifestyle to please God is literal, and doesn't mean "something else".

Nice try!

You asked me to point out metaphor in the passage.

Clearly the concept of "walk" is indeed being used metaphorically in the passage - Paul is not interested in exhorting people to learn how use their legs in the most energy-efficient manner.

Therefore, "walking", as used here by Paul, is not to be taken literally.

Do you deny this? Apparently you do not: by your own words, you declare that "walk" refers to "lifestyle".

Well, that is a metaphor, no?

 

[smaller]

I suspect you will rend your garment and cry "heresy", but I believe this prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus' own day. The problem with the futurist perspective is that you have to overlook Jesus' rather clear declaration:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [Matt 24:34, KJV]

I am puzzled that so many "futurists" seem to be able to rework this to:

Verily I say unto you, Hundreds of generations shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

There is a singular evil generation of vipers as well, Drew.

Matthew 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

We can observe from Genesis to Revelation, the growth of the viper, the snake, the Great Dragon, in his "generation, evil."

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The deceptions of the deceiver have been with man, from the beginning. It's also why your "social gospel" will never pan out, because you have no account for "the wicked."

Proverbs 30:14
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Matthew 12:45
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

 

[Brother Mike]

I suspect you will rend your garment and cry "heresy", but I believe this prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus' own day. The problem with the futurist perspective is that you have to overlook Jesus' rather clear declaration:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [Matt 24:34, KJV]

I am puzzled that so many "futurists" seem to be able to rework this to:

Verily I say unto you, Hundreds of generations shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

What? First I have no idea what a Futurist is, something that must have been created by a confused person to label someone else. Much like the Term Word of Faith was \created for certain Prosperity teachers, or those who claim we can blab it and grab it.
It might have been created so a confused group could separate themselves from those who are not confused. I don't know.

Bottom line though.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(Mat 24:21-22)

This verse has yet come to pass. Something far worse is coming on the Earth that blows the flood away and Noah's time, and only Noah and His family made it out of all other breather things on the Earth.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(Mat 24:34)

So that Generation that see's these things will not pass away until that 7th seal is opened. Jesus is talking about a period in time and the events that will happen in that time.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:1-2)

It does not take a whole lot of I.Q to know that believers have not been delivered from this time of trouble yet, and does not take past 3rd grade reading ability to know that man has not experienced any time Worse than the judgement and flood of Noah.

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
(2Pe 2:5)

It's not about reading one verse and being labelled some futurist and misunderstanding the verse, it's a whole lot of verses that a normal Person would understand clearly that the Generation where the World experiences worse things than the time of Noah, has not happened yet, because we are still here with everyone else.

Just when I thought you made sense in some post, thinking this guy might be sane after all, and you go and quote me and blow all those thoughts I had about you.

I might go Back and fourth with JLB, but JLB is not that confused, and I understand why He see's what He see's, I don't understand this at all.

I am also weary of this Post trib and Pre Trib discussion. it's old, and beaten, and the same arguments from the novices who don't fully understand each side, same thing year after year, just a different thread with different people.

Mike.

 

[Drew]

Jesus' coming is at the end of the age, when He returns with the saints from heaven to gather His people together at the resurrection and rapture. Matthew 24:3,29-31
Mark 13:27

Every eye will see this event.
Revelation 1:7


JLB

It will perhaps not surprise you that I think Matthew has been fulfilled already. Just to set the record straight, this view is actually viewed as plausible by most Bible scholars:

In the case of the Olivet discourse, most biblical scholars also think that a preterist interpretation works for much of what Jesus says there

Dr. J Richard Middleton, Professor of Biblical Worldview and Exegesis at Northeastern Seminary

 

[Drew]

We are the dwelling place, the temple, the literal place where God dwells.

Not something else, ephemeral, or imaginary.

We are a literal container of the Holy Spirit.

No. To refer to a human being as a vessel is to employ metaphorical language. A vessel refers to "a hollow container, especially one used to hold liquid, such as a bowl or cask."

A human body is not literally a vessel - no reasonable person would write the definition of a human body thus:

a hollow container, especially one used to hold liquid, such as a bowl or cask.

Just like references to us a temple entail the use of metaphor. Your argument appears to be that if the body "contains" the presence of the Holy Spirit, then metaphor is not being used. But that argument certainly does not work. If I say "Fred is a vessel for beer", I am using metaphor - comparing something that is not literally vessel - namely Fred - to a literal thing, that is, a vessel.

 

[Drew]

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(Mat 24:21-22)

This verse has yet come to pass.

How do you know this has not come to pass? Please be specific.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(Mat 24:34)

This what I find so odd about the futurist position - Jesus looks people in the eyes and says "this generation shall not pass until....". Yet you seem to think he is saying "Some other generation - one in distant future - will not pass until...."

It really seems you are radically rewriting what Jesus says - how do explain this?

 

[reba]

So you are taken a metaphorical scripture from Daniel, to refute the clear and plain words of Jesus Christ?

What is your accounting of the conversations after His resurrection with Mary and then Thomas. ...

Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 

[Drew]

So you are taken a metaphorical scripture from Daniel, to refute the clear and plain words of Jesus Christ?

Of course I am not doing this, and I do not see how you arrive at such a conclusion. All I am saying is that in quoting directly from a metaphorical passage, Jesus is invoking the meaning of that metaphor and applying it to Himself. How, and please be precise, am I "refuting" Jesus' plain words. If Jesus said "It's raining cats and dogs" do I refute Jesus by claiming He is not suggesting that felines and canines are falling from the sky?

Daniel 7 uses "come on the clouds" to refer to an ascent of vindication and enthronement, not to a descent associated with a second coming. And Jesus uses this same language to refer to Himself. Am I am the one refuting Jesus?

 

[JLB]

Jesus said to Mary dont touch Me I have not ascended... then some time later says to Thomas touch me...The plain Word of God says both statements ..

Can you show me where Thomas actually touched Jesus?

You have to presume that Thomas touched Jesus, when he didn't and then to try and and over rule what the plain straightforward clear and irrefutable verse"s of scripture say, by the account of The writer of the book of Acts.

Jesus was seen by His disciples for 40 days, and gave commands to them, until He was taken up. Acts 1:1-11

He will come a second time, for salvation, for those who eagerly wait for Him. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

 

[reba]

Can you show me where Thomas actually touched Jesus?

You have to presume that Thomas touched Jesus, when he didn't and then to try and and over rule what the plain straightforward clear and irrefutable verse"s of scripture say, by the account of The writer of the book of Acts.

Jesus was seen by His disciples for 40 days, and gave commands to them, until He was taken up. Acts 1:1-11

He will come a second time, for salvation, for those who eagerly wait for Him. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

Nope i cant ... The same as you can not show he didn't..... The questions remains why would Jesus invite one and not the other? and any answer will be considered a presumption...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.

In the Greek text He said "Touch Me not", should read, "Don't hold Me up".

Please quote which Bible translation says this.
Thank you.

 

[HalleluYAH]

Please quote which Bible translation says this.
Thank you.

KJV