Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[turnorburn]

To drew and jlb
Hi
I believe that "in the air" means spirit.
Air, strong's #109 and #55994, greek ,
means, to breathe, breath, the breath of life ,Spirit.
We shall meet them in the spiritual dimension.

Clouds can also mean, witnesses,
Heb. 12:1
A cloud of witnesses.
Others in the spiritual.
Like a cloud of locusts.

I also do not believe in the pretrib rapture.

The saints do not get rewarded until the 7th trump, Satan comes at the 6th.
Rev.11:18

Good day

Hi Diane, where did you hear that Satan comes at the 6th trump?

tob

 

[smaller]

What do you seek after. Destruction? Or Salvation?

Both sights are sought for. The devil and his messengers will be destroyed. That is the end of the wicked age and "their" wicked/evil generation and this wicked "whole" world.

As to how and how this might relate to "fire" can be a deep discussion in itself. There are many different types of fires in the scriptures and many different deployments.

There were fires that burned, but did not consume.
There were fires that destroyed.

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

 

[dianegcook]

Hi Diane, where did you hear that Satan comes at the 6th trump?

tob

Hi there, good evening,
Rev.9:11
They had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit.
Name Abaddon, Apollyon, which is Satan.
Verse 13, 6th trump
V.18,19
3rd part of men killed (spiritually) by the fire, smoke and brimstone that issued out of their mouths.
Lies, deception
Read on.....Rev.11:7
The beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit killed the 2witnesses.
Then in verse 15 of Rev. 11,
The 7th trump sounds, and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ and He shall reign 4ever.
Verse 18, Thy wrath is come, reward the saints.

 

[dianegcook]

Both sights are sought for. The devil and his messengers will be destroyed. That is the end of the wicked age and "their" wicked/evil generation and this wicked "whole" world.

As to how and how this might relate to "fire" can be a deep discussion in itself. There are many different types of fires in the scriptures and many different deployments.

There were fires that burned, but did not consume.
There were fires that destroyed.

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Amen,
1Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

 

[turnorburn]

Hi there, good evening,
Rev.9:11
They had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit.
Name Abaddon, Apollyon, which is Satan.
Verse 13, 6th trump
V.18,19
3rd part of men killed (spiritually) by the fire, smoke and brimstone that issued out of their mouths.
Lies, deception
Read on.....Rev.11:7
The beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit killed the 2witnesses.
Then in verse 15 of Rev. 11,
The 7th trump sounds, and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ and He shall reign 4ever.
Verse 18, Thy wrath is come, reward the saints.

Are you talking about antichrist?

tob

 

[Brother Mike]

I have an exhaustive strongs sitting in front of me and it says#109 aer from aemi meaning to breathe , comp to #5594 psucho, primary verb, to breathe.
Gen.2:7
God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.



I did not give you a Greek definition of cloud.
It could mean other things besides a white fluffy thing in the sky.
In 1Thess.4: it states meet, join, our deceased loved ones in the clouds.
They are coming with Christ to reign.
Mark 13:27
Gather His elect from the uttermost part of the earth and the UTTERMOST PART OF HEAVEN.
Rev.20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part of the first resurrection, but they shall be priests of GOD and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

No confusion here.
Good evening

Your Comparing Hebrew and Greek which are two very different languages. There is no Word for "spirit" exactly in Hebrew, but there is in the Greek. Messiah translates into Christ in the the Greek for it's closes Word, but Messiah means Anointed King, or Anointed one of God. Christ means anointed.


And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(Mar 13:26-27)

Every eye on earth see's him coming here.


This verse most definitely for the end after the 7th seal 1/2 hour of silence on all the earth. It proves neither Pre or Post trib though. The Pre-Trib agree's also that the believers come down and there will be those also saved through Tribulation. The problem wit the Post trib idea is that there is no Resurrection even mentioned with this.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(Heb 9:28)

Then only those looking for him, shall he appear here.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
(Mat 24:40-43)

There is a reason why there are Post and Pre trib believers.

For the pre-tib, there are two events. One where we watch constantly and be ready for him to remove the church out of the way for the destruction to come. He will appear to only those looking for him and being ready.

We don't know when, or even what Hour.

the 6th and 7th seal on His second coming down with the Angels and clouds to gather all of us, and those left after tribulation we know down to the exact Half hour after the 6th seal. We count events through the tribulation and even the World knows He is coming after the 7th seal because they try to run and hide from him during this time.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(Rev 6:14-17)

One event He removes his body from the earth, and He is taken out of the way so there is no more light on the earth, no more Spirit filled believers on the earth.

The other event the sun goes dark with the moon, the heavens are shaken, then darkness and complete silence on the earth. People are trying to hide from the face of the lamb. Then He comes with the glory of His angels with his believers and the rest who made it through are gathered together for the battle.

There are reason why there are two camps here, and a 3rd called preterist who are confused and throwing confusion in the mix.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." [Mark 14:61, 62]

You shall see is future tense, as this event won't happen UNTILL the end of the age, unless your John and are caught up to heaven and are shown the future.

JLB

 

[JLB]

But Jesus says these words to Caiaphus. So if your view is right, we'll have to dig up poor Caiaphus so he can Jesus "coming on the clouds".

I trust you see the problem with this....

Why would you have to dig up Caiaphus, for him to see the Son of Man Coming in the clouds?

It's not Caiaphus' decayed body that will see, but Caiaphus himself.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

All will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Two things:

1. Are you suggesting that Hell is located at the centre of our planet?
2. The fact that the language of melting elements is used does not require us to take stuff literally - I believe that it's a colorful way of expressing the radical transformation that the earth will undergo.

Regarding point 2: I know a lot of people around here are skeptical about the use of metaphorical language. But I am prepared to show from the Old Testament that this kind of spectacular "cosmic meltdown" language is generally used in a clearly metaphorical way. The problem is that people come to their Bible not knowing this and believe things like the stars will fall to earth and the moon will melt, or whatever. But if you actually study the Old Testament, not to mention the cultural practices of the time, it is really quite clear that this language is metaphorical.

The scriptures do use metaphorical language, and thel also use literal language.

Knowing the difference is one way to rightly divide the word of Truth.

Knowing the difference keeps us from straying from the truth and being likened to a sinner, as James teaches us...

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Peter couples his teaching about the earth being destroyed by fire, with the literal event of the earth being destroyed by water.

saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:4-7

By linking the literal flooding of the earth with water, and comparing it to the coming fire that will consume both the earth and the heavens, we understand that this fire is LITERAL, and not metaphorical.

Also, by comparing the fire that will consume the earth with the flood of Noah's day, we can see the intent is to remove and purge the heavens and the earth of wicked and ungodly men and the abominable things they created for the purpose of restoring Divine Order.




JLB

 

[smaller]

Hi there, good evening,

The 7th trump sounds, and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ and He shall reign 4ever.
Verse 18, Thy wrath is come, reward the saints.

Divine Beauty.

 

[Drew]

You shall see is future tense, as this event won't happen UNTILL the end of the age, unless your John and are caught up to heaven and are shown the future.

JLB

The fact that the future tense is used obviously does not mean it has to be the end of the age. Jesus is telling caiaphus that caiaphus will see Jesus resurrected and enthroned during caiaphus own lifetime.

 

[JLB]

The fact that the future tense is used obviously does not mean it has to be the end of the age. Jesus is telling caiaphus that caiaphus will see Jesus resurrected and enthroned during caiaphus own lifetime.

Jesus' coming is at the end of the age, when He returns with the saints from heaven to gather His people together at the resurrection and rapture. Matthew 24:3,29-31
Mark 13:27

Every eye will see this event.
Revelation 1:7


JLB

 

[JLB]

Nowe we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our assembling vnto him, That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs, as though the day of Christ were at hand. Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition, Which is an aduersarie, and exalteth him selfe against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing him selfe that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I tolde you these things? And nowe ye knowe what withholdeth that he might be reueiled in his time. For the mysterie of iniquitie doeth already worke: onely he which nowe withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked man be reueiled, whome the Lorde shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightnes of his comming,
(2Th 2:1-8)

Your lumping these into "ONE" coming but it clearly shows two.

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


He comes a Second time... not a third or fourth.

This truth of Jesus Coming once more, deals with the unbiblical doctrine of preterism and pre-trib rapture.



Examples of Apostasy in the Christian church
by Matt Slick

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; 4and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths," (2 Tim. 4:3-4).

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Following is a list of examples of churches that claim to be Christian who are adopting unbiblical ideas. Note: individual churches do not represent denominations.

1. Changing the Bible to suit gender-neutral wording.
   1. This has crept into the church periodically in the last 30 years. Due to pressure from the secular society, some Christian based Bible publishers are offering gender-neutral Bibles. This is sad. Is God's Word any less true because it is not gender-neutral? Should Christians change God's Word to suit the unbeliever? No and no.
2. Metropolitan Community Church which openly approves of homosexuality.
3. The Evangelical Lutheran Church (on homosexuality).
   1. "The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America decided Monday to undertake its first major study on whether to endorse the morality of homosexual relationships . . . The Rev. Ann Tiemeyer of Woodside, N.Y., said she supports greater acceptance of gay church members and clergy. "It is time to send a message that we are a welcoming church, in our clergy as well as our pews," she said," (Associated Press Online, 08/13/2001, Lutherans to Study Homosexuality).
   2. "The church currently allows homosexual clergy if they practice celibacy," (New Bishop for Evangelical Lutherans, ELCA, Associated Press Online, 10/06/2001).
      1. Note: if a person acknowledges that homosexuality is a sin and is in a state of repentance but still has those tendencies, then this would not disqualify him from being a minister. However, if he were a homosexual who is not practicing but also believes that it is okay and not a sin, then that would disqualify him from being a minister.
4. The Evangelical Lutheran Church (on evolution).
   1. The ELCA doesn't have an official position on creation vs. evolution, but we subscribe to the historical-critical method of biblical interpretation, so we believe God created the universe and all that is therein, only not necessarily in six 24-hour days, and that he may actually have used evolution in the process of creation. (http://www.elca.org/co/faq/evolution.html)
5. The Episcopal Church (woman bishop to oust conservative priest).
   1. "An Episcopal Church committee has backed efforts by Washington's acting Bishop Jane Holmes Dixon to oust a conservative priest. A nine-member panel of clergy and laity said Dixon followed church law when she rejected the decision of the Christ Church vestry to hire the Rev. Samuel Edwards and ordered him to leave by May 25. Edwards refused, and continues to conduct services and occupy the rectory," (Religion News in Brief, Associated Press Online, 09/27/2001).
6. The Mennonite Church (on homosexuality).
   1. "After nearly two decades of negotiation, the nation's two largest Mennonite denominations overwhelmingly approved a merger Thursday that creates the 125,000-member Mennonite Church USA . . . . Many delegates expressed mixed feelings about the new membership guidelines, under which the church will not recognize same-sex marriages. Individual congregations and regional conferences will decide whether homosexuals will be allowed as members, (Two Mennonite Groups Approve Merger, NASHVILLE, Tenn., Jul 05, 2001, AP Online via COMTEX).
7. The Presbyterian Church United States of America (on homosexuality).
   1. "In a closely watched case, the highest court of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) refused to rule Tuesday on whether a homosexual man is eligible to serve as a church elder. The court said the dispute surrounding Wayne Osborne had become moot because the First Presbyterian Church of Stamford, Conn., had installed another group of elders," (Presbyterian Court Sidesteps Ruling, Ky., Dec 04, 2001, AP Online via COMTEX).
8. The United Church of Christ (on homosexuality).
   1. "The United Church of Christ set up a $500,000 scholarship fund for gay and lesbian seminarians Friday and urged wider acceptance of homosexuals by other denominations," (United Church Makes Gay Scholarship, CLEVELAND, Jun 16, 2000, AP Online via COMTEX).
9. The United Methodist Church (on homosexuality).
   1. "The supreme court of the United Methodist Church was asked Thursday to reconsider the denomination's ban on gay clergy," (Church court of United Methodists asked to decide on gay clergy ban, NASHVILLE, Tennessee, Oct 25, 2001, AP WorldStream via COMTEX).

In contemporary culture, homosexuality is gaining ground and acceptance. This should never bleed over into the Christian church. The fact that homosexuality is even in question in some denominations is a definite sign of apostasy since homosexuality clearly contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture that homosexuality is a sin: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God," (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

Unfortunately, too many denominations are listening to the false gospel of the world and becoming secularized. They need to repent and stand on God's Word, whether it is popular or not.

https://carm.org/examples-apostasy-christian-church

JLB

 

[reba]

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


He comes a Second time... not a third or fourth.

This truth of Jesus Coming once more, deals with the unbiblical doctrine of preterism and pre-trib rapture.

How do you account for the times He appeared after His Resurrection ?

 

[dianegcook]

Are you talking about antichrist?

tob

That is what most people call him.
I call him the false one, the serpent, Dragon, Lucifer.
How did he deceive Eve?
With his mouth, lies.

 

[smaller]

The fact that the future tense is used obviously does not mean it has to be the end of the age. Jesus is telling caiaphus that caiaphus will see Jesus resurrected and enthroned during caiaphus own lifetime.

That is such an absurd notion I can't even begin to critique it.

There is a kingdom on/in earth, presently. It is this one, with this mini-king and his mini-kingdom, which God in Christ has opposed from the beginning, yet presently allows:

Matthew 12:26
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Luke 11:18
If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

Yes, Satan has a kingdom. NO, it is not seen with flesh eyes, but IS Revealed by The Word. Yes, this world unseen has also, children, inhabitants, unseen.

Yet these ALL, are also revealed in every action of sin.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the kingdom of Satan and his minions still existed AFTER the resurrection. And casual glance at the world will STILL reveal these matters, continuing.

 

[JLB]

How do you account for the times He appeared after His Resurrection ?

He never left the earth, from Birth to His leaving to heaven in the sight of His disciple and those who witnessed Him leave.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11

By the scripture.

Not by commentary, not by human reasoning, by the word of truth.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Second time, to me means that he has come and appeared in visible form once.

He will appear a second time, at the end of the age on the last day of this age, to Gather His people at the resurrection and rapture.

A second time, means 2. Not 3 or 4. Two. 2. Second.

Which means He did not come and appear in 70 AD, and resurrect and rapture His people then.


JLB

 

[reba]

He never left the earth, from Birth to His leaving to heaven in the sight of His disciple and those who witnessed Him leave.

What is your accounting of the conversations after His resurrection with Mary and then Thomas. ...

Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 

[dianegcook]

Your Comparing Hebrew and Greek which are two very different languages. There is no Word for "spirit" exactly in Hebrew, but there is in the Greek. Messiah translates into Christ in the the Greek for it's closes Word, but Messiah means Anointed King, or Anointed one of God. Christ means anointed.


And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(Mar 13:26-27)

Every eye on earth see's him coming here.


This verse most definitely for the end after the 7th seal 1/2 hour of silence on all the earth. It proves neither Pre or Post trib though. The Pre-Trib agree's also that the believers come down and there will be those also saved through Tribulation. The problem wit the Post trib idea is that there is no Resurrection even mentioned with this.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(Heb 9:28)

Then only those looking for him, shall he appear here.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
(Mat 24:40-43)

There is a reason why there are Post and Pre trib believers.

For the pre-tib, there are two events. One where we watch constantly and be ready for him to remove the church out of the way for the destruction to come. He will appear to only those looking for him and being ready.

We don't know when, or even what Hour.

the 6th and 7th seal on His second coming down with the Angels and clouds to gather all of us, and those left after tribulation we know down to the exact Half hour after the 6th seal. We count events through the tribulation and even the World knows He is coming after the 7th seal because they try to run and hide from him during this time.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(Rev 6:14-17)

One event He removes his body from the earth, and He is taken out of the way so there is no more light on the earth, no more Spirit filled believers on the earth.

The other event the sun goes dark with the moon, the heavens are shaken, then darkness and complete silence on the earth. People are trying to hide from the face of the lamb. Then He comes with the glory of His angels with his believers and the rest who made it through are gathered together for the battle.

There are reason why there are two camps here, and a 3rd called preterist who are confused and throwing confusion in the mix.

Mike.

The word ruach , Spirit occurs 389 times in the Hebrew O.T.
1.God as being invisible, the spirit of Jehovah
2.The Holy Spirit
3.Invisible divine power manifesting itself, in creation, Gen.1:2, in giving life, Ezek. 37.14,
4.Invisible, "Power from on High"
5. The invisible part of man, at birth and returning to God at death, breath, Gen. 6:17
6. The invisible characters of man, and so forth.
And as far as the seals, my belief, this is wisdom planted, sealed, in ones forehead, mind, wisdom of the trumps that are about to sound.
God's wrath happens one time, not 3.
Seal
Rev.6:17, the great day of His wrath is come.
Rev.11:18 7th trump.
They wrath is come
Rev.16:17
Vial, it is done

Thus, I disagree with ya.

In Rev.9:4
Satan and His angels are not to harm those with the seal in their foreheads.
They are armed with truth, will not believe the smoke, brimstone, that issues out of his mouth, lies.

Good day

 

[JLB]

1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;

---Has Paul been teaching people the mechanics of activating their legs to move along the road? No? Then "ought to walk" is a metaphor. Steeerike 1!

Their walk or lifestyle to please God is literal, and doesn't mean "something else".

Nice try!

4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,

We are the dwelling place, the temple, the literal place where God dwells.

Not something else, ephemeral, or imaginary.

We are a literal container of the Holy Spirit.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16

You method of interpretation "changes the meaning" of the scripture, unlike what Paul does as he uses familiar language to convey a literal truth.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


You method of interpretation, which is no method at all, just simply changes the phrase "in the clouds, to meet the lord in the air", to another meaning, which you for whatever reason believe to mean; "on the ground and not in the air"...

Hopefully you can see just how ridiculous your "theory" is and how it leads to changing the meaning of the scripture, and more. Drop the snarks reba

Bases loaded... HOME RUN!!!!



JLB