Only ONE TRUE GOD.

[Imagican]

Mec
What are u talking about? Please break it down to me in simple Spanish so I understand it

Question:

Do Moderators have the 'ability' to DELETE posts that THEY make?

I will further elaborate:

I 'THOUGHT' that I was replying to a post that you made with the 'quote' contained with MY answer. In other words, Jesus, yesterday, today and forever. I would almost SWEAR that there was a post BY 'you', j, that offered this. If not, I apologize. My reply was MEANT for 'someone else'. But that I WAS replying to a PARTICULAR post is WITHOUT DOUBT as far as MY REPLY.

So, I have gone back and rearead MOST of the posts on the last two pages and can't seem to 'find' the post to which I was responding. I would sincerely HOPE that you wouldn't 'delete' your post and then ACTUALLY 'ASK' me what 'I' am talking about.

I will further scan the last couple of pages and see if I can find WHO I would have been refering to. If I can't find it then I will truly wonder what happened to it. I will also go to the other threads that I have posted on in the past few days and see if I somehow cliped something from 'another' and posted in the wrong place.

But, you could help me j, perhaps you remember what thread and when you posted a reply concerning ''yesterday, today and forever''. If so, then THAT was what I was replying to.

Regards,

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Mec
Moderators can only delete post in there respective forums...Now it was not Me who asked that Question but Joe, (francis) I base this on the fact he responded to your post...Now in saying that, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and have no problem taking that position.. 8-)

 

[Imagican]

j,

You ARE absolutely RIGHT. My mistake. It was 'fran' that made the statement. My apologies. I don't know HOW I 'made' the mistake. Guess I'm just gettin' old? (he he he). But I AM sorry that I made the 'reply' directed at you. I have edited it and can only ask for your forgiveness.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

j,

You ARE absolutely RIGHT. My mistake. It was 'fran' that made the statement. My apologies. I don't know HOW I 'made' the mistake. Guess I'm just gettin' old? (he he he). But I AM sorry that I made the 'reply' directed at you. I have edited it and can only ask for your forgiveness.

MEC

No problem mec and no opology necessary...

 

[stranger]

. . .

Now, as PROOF of my understanding;

Hebrews 1:4

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Now, 'twist THESE words around'.

MEC

Hi MEC,

So on the basis of THIS verse (4) and the underlined 'made' you claim that our Lord was created? Let us look at the passage together.

 

[stranger]

Hi Imagician,

Heb 1:6 And let all the angels of God worship Him.

In the scriptures ONLY God can be worshipped. If any created being is worshipped that is called IDOLATRY.

It therefore follows IF Jesus was created THEN the angels of God worshipping Him commit idolatry.

On the basis of Rom 1:25. . .

the angels of God have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator!

Imagician - Please explain how it is possible for the angels of God to commit idolatry?

 

[Imagican]

This is JUST HOW confused so MANY truly ARE.

We were NEVER told ONLY to worship GOD. YES, you may pull a scripture out here and one there that state that worship is reserved for God. But, IF you take scripture AS a WHOLE, you will CLEARLY find, (including the Commandments), that we are to worship NOTHING AS GOD, other THAN GOD.

So, your contention of worship is skewed. For LOVE IS WORSHIP. We worship that which we ADORE. And this CAN be ANYTHING. And I MEAN; ANYTHING. You may 'argue this point', but IF so, then I offer that you have NOT come to a 'COMPLETE' understanding of exactly WHAT 'worship' IS.

In THIS respect, that ANYTHING CAN be worshiped, it becomes OBVIOUS that it's NOT JUST 'worship' that is ONLY for God. It is worship OF a god or gods that IS RESERVED FOR GOD. For those that would deny what I offer, I challenge you to 'go back' and READ the commandments and EVERY reference to worship that exists in The Word.

I have already OPENLY and readily admitted that one IS able to find individual lines of scripture that MAY INDICATE that ALL worship is for God ONLY. But ONLY when taken OUT OF CONTEXT. For WHAT is worship BUT TO SERVE another? And we have the PERFECT example of Christ WORHIPING His deciples. When He bowed at the feet of His diciples and 'washed their FEET', He WAS offering devotion that IS worship. But, NOT WORSHIP that is RESERVED for God.

So, beware of your understanding of worship. For IF you DO NOT REALIZE fully what 'worship' TRULY IS, then you will MOST LIKELY end up worshiping MANY things 'other than God' without even understanding what it is that you TRULY DO.

MEC[/b]

 

[stranger]

Imagican wrote:
This is JUST HOW confused so MANY truly ARE.

We were NEVER told ONLY to worship GOD.

We are told if we worship and serve the creature ( a created ficticous Jesus) rather than the Creator we exchange the truth of God for a lie. I call this idolatry. We were discussing worship - I call you back to the discussion.

YES, you may pull a scripture out here and one there that state that worship is reserved for God. But, IF you take scripture AS a WHOLE, you will CLEARLY find, (including the Commandments), that we are to worship NOTHING AS GOD, other THAN GOD.

We are to worship God as God - you cannot counter orthodoxy with an orthodox insertion.

So, your contention of worship is skewed. For LOVE IS WORSHIP. We worship that which we ADORE. And this CAN be ANYTHING. And I MEAN; ANYTHING. You may 'argue this point', but IF so, then I offer that you have NOT come to a 'COMPLETE' understanding of exactly WHAT 'worship' IS.

I have never contended that apart from worship we are to do nothing else in relation to God. Here you try to take the focus of the issue. I call you back to the discussion about worship and the text in Heb 1:6 ' And let all the angels of God worship Him. and Rom 1:25

If Jesus is created those who worship Him commit idolatry.

In THIS respect, that ANYTHING CAN be worshiped, it becomes OBVIOUS that it's NOT JUST 'worship' that is ONLY for God. It is worship OF a god or gods that IS RESERVED FOR GOD. For those that would deny what I offer, I challenge you to 'go back' and READ the commandments and EVERY reference to worship that exists in The Word.

Let me say this in a simple sentence. If you worship God - fine, if you worship anything that is created - your worship is idolatry.

I have already OPENLY and readily admitted that one IS able to find individual lines of scripture that MAY INDICATE that ALL worship is for God ONLY. But ONLY when taken OUT OF CONTEXT. For WHAT is worship BUT TO SERVE another? And we have the PERFECT example of Christ WORHIPING His deciples. When He bowed at the feet of His diciples and 'washed their FEET', He WAS offering devotion that IS worship. But, NOT WORSHIP that is RESERVED for God.

Now you proceed to change the meaning of worship. Serving one another? Love is serving one another - We have a perfect example of Christ's humility in washing the disciples feet and serving them in this way - but NO He was not worshipping the creature (his disciples) as you suggest.

So, beware of your understanding of worship. For IF you DO NOT REALIZE fully what 'worship' TRULY IS, then you will MOST LIKELY end up worshiping MANY things 'other than God' without even understanding what it is that you TRULY DO.

Thankyou for your advice. If I end up worshipping many things (anything) other than God - I commit idolatry. Again, you cannot counter orthodoxy with an orthodox insertion.

 

[jgredline]

Hi Imagician,

Heb 1:6 And let all the angels of God worship Him.

In the scriptures ONLY God can be worshipped. If any created being is worshipped that is called IDOLATRY.

It therefore follows IF Jesus was created THEN the angels of God worshipping Him commit idolatry.

On the basis of Rom 1:25. . .

the angels of God have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator!

Imagician - Please explain how it is possible for the angels of God to commit idolatry?

Great post.....

 

[francisdesales]

This is JUST HOW confused so MANY truly ARE.

We were NEVER told ONLY to worship GOD. YES, you may pull a scripture out here and one there that state that worship is reserved for God. But, IF you take scripture AS a WHOLE, you will CLEARLY find, (including the Commandments), that we are to worship NOTHING AS GOD, other THAN GOD.

So, your contention of worship is skewed.

Imagican,

I believe you are the one confused. I haven't seen something twisting and turning so much since I saw a rattlesnake on the concrete here in the desert heat in Arizona...

Worship is given only to God. If you haven't gotten that from Scriptures, you need to go back again and read it. NOWHERE is there a verse that allows one to worship ANYTHING else BUT GOD!!!

This merely shows that your own theology is falling apart. You worship Jesus Christ but yet, you refuse to call Him God... Thus, there is a problem with your worship and your theology - they don't agree.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Imagican,
Worship is given only to God. If you haven't gotten that from Scriptures, you need to go back again and read it. NOWHERE is there a verse that allows one to worship ANYTHING else BUT GOD!!!

This merely shows that your own theology is falling apart. You worship Jesus Christ but yet, you refuse to call Him God... Thus, there is a problem with your worship and your theology - they don't agree.

Regards

Yep, this is exactly right and he has admited as much, but still refuses to believe

 

[Imagican]

We were ALSO WARNED that there would 'come a time' that there would be those that WOULD worship the 'creation' MORE than the Creator. Hmmm. Wonder when THAT will happen?

MEC

 

[jgredline]

We were ALSO WARNED that there would 'come a time' that there would be those that WOULD worship the 'creation' MORE than the Creator. Hmmm. Wonder when THAT will happen?

MEC

Mec
I guess your implying that Jesus was created....again.

 

[francisdesales]

We were ALSO WARNED that there would 'come a time' that there would be those that WOULD worship the 'creation' MORE than the Creator. Hmmm. Wonder when THAT will happen?

MEC

Sounds like you are doing that now, if you worship a creation. You claim Jesus was a creation, so you are breaking the first commandment by worshiping something other than God.

Apparently, the first Christians knew what they worshipped when they worshipped Jesus and called Him God...

Regards

 

[DM]

Francisdesales wrote the following statement:

"NOWHERE is there a verse that allows one to worship ANYTHING else BUT GOD!!! "

This emphatic statement deserves a challenge. I would like Francisdesales to explain this opinion in light of 1 Chronicles 29:20, where we read that the people of Israel "worshipped" (KJV) the LORD and the king (i.e. David).

I just want to understand your take on the verse.

Sincerely,
David

 

[jgredline]

DM
I know that your post was directed to Francis, but if I may add my two cents to this.....The Hebrew word that is used for worship is in 1 Chronicles 29:20 kjv is the Hebrew word חָוָה (ḥā∙wā(h))... This word means (hishtph) bow down, prostrate oneself, i.e., take a stance of bowing low in an act. of respect or honor, but not necessarily worship of deity (Ge 43:28); 2. LN 53.53-53.64 (hishtph) bow in worship, prostrate oneself, i.e., make a low stance as a sign of honor, worship, and homage of deity, with an associative meaning of allegiance to that deity (Ex 4:31)

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament)

So if we look at the context of this verse in context; what did David ask them to do? He asked them to Bless the Lord....The NKJV has it right....

1 chron 29:20
20 Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless the Lord your God.†So all the assembly blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and prostrated themselves before the Lord and the king.

So basically what they did was bend their knee before God and their King...This does not mean they ''Worshiped'' David for they were well versed in the Law.....

This is what happens when folks take verses out of context....Like 1 chron 29:20...They begin to worship false Gods....

 

[DM]

Hi jgredline.

Thanks for your response.

Your choice of wording, "not necessarily worship of deity" could just as well be rephrased as, "not necessarily not worship of deity", yes? If so, then what we would have is a biblical example of where a man, king David, is "worshipped" as God. Having said that, I'm not trying to suggest that such is the case. I agree with you that the context is "not necessarily worship of deity".

The fact that the New Testament Greek uses quotations in many cases from the Septuagint (LXX) [which, for those who may not already know, is the Greek translation of the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures], must be considered. The Greek word used for "worship", with respect to contexts involving Jesus in the New Testament is proskyneo.

The LXX translation of 1 Chronicles 29:20 happens to use proskyneo as well. And yet, the English translators saw it appropriate to use the term "worship" in the KJV. Most other translations opt for something less problematic, such as "prostrated themselves".

My point, is that since you have suggested that the context of 1 Chronicles 29:20 is "not necessarily worship of deity", then you must by the same reasoning allow for that to apply to Jesus in the New Testament as well. If you don't, then you're not being fair in allowing the same method of interpretation apply to passages which are central to your position. There's no absolute way to say that the proskyneo given to Jesus is anything more than the same homage/respect given to king David in 1 Chronicles 29:20.

Did the disciples, "bow low" and "prostrate" themselves before Jesus? No doubt. Does this necessitate that Jesus be God Himself? Absolutely not.

Peace in Him.
David

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:


This one does it for me.

I worship the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus Christ is God.

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales wrote the following statement:

"NOWHERE is there a verse that allows one to worship ANYTHING else BUT GOD!!! "

This emphatic statement deserves a challenge. I would like Francisdesales to explain this opinion in light of 1 Chronicles 29:20, where we read that the people of Israel "worshipped" (KJV) the LORD and the king (i.e. David).

I just want to understand your take on the verse.

Dave,

Thanks for pointing out this verse...

"And David commanded all the assembly: Bless ye the Lord our God. And all the assembly blessed the Lord the God of their fathers: and they bowed themselves and worshipped God, and then the king. And they sacrificed victims to the Lord: and they offered holocausts the next day, a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, a thousand lambs, with their libations, and with every thing prescribed most abundantly for all Israel." 1 Chronicles 19:20-21

The nation of Israel worshiped God as the Supreme Ruler and David as his deputy. Note, I included the next verse in my reply. The reason why is because I want to point out something to you...

There is only one act that we can do that can ONLY be given to God. It is not kneeling, it is not praying to, it is offering sacrifices to. Scriptures tell us that we are to offer sacrifice to God alone. Thus, in the above Scriptures, we see that "worship" is meant to be taken as honor - while "worship" in the sense offered to God alone is shown by the next verse and the offering of sacrificial victims. No one offered sacrificial victims to David - and thus, "worship" in the sense offered to God is not the same "worship" offered to David.

"Worship" as we know it even today can have multiple meanings. We often say "I worship my wife", or whatever. However, when speaking of worship in the proper religious sense, we are speaking of the act given to God and God alone - the only external act that is properly worship in this sense is sacrificial offerings.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Thank you fran.

I have attempted previous to 'explain' the word worship and MANY have chosen to utterly ignore my explanation.

We are to 'serve' EACH OTHER and above ALL God. And this IS worship. But, as you have well pointed out, there IS to be NOTHING worshiped AS God EXCEPT God. Yet you ARE to worship, (love, serve, etc..), your WIFE as you would YOUR SELF. But neither one's self NOR their wives, children, dogs, cats, cars, etc, etc, etc, are to be worshiped AS GOD.

MEC