Only ONE TRUE GOD.

[Imagican]

fran,

Neat stuff,

It seems that MUCH of your offerings indicate that Christ is NOT ONLY the Son of God, but that He was MOST certainly 'created'. For MOST of what you offer states that 'before' the earth was COMPLETE, Christ WAS created. That 'the beginning' that SO MANY would have mean ETERNALLY, simply IS in RELATION to MANKIND.

I appreciate your offering. Especially the OT stuff.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

Neat stuff,

It seems that MUCH of your offerings indicate that Christ is NOT ONLY the Son of God, but that He was MOST certainly 'created'. For MOST of what you offer states that 'before' the earth was COMPLETE, Christ WAS created. That 'the beginning' that SO MANY would have mean ETERNALLY, simply IS in RELATION to MANKIND.

I appreciate your offering. Especially the OT stuff.

Thanks. I think...

Now, you will explain to me at what point in TIME did God exist without His Wisdom???

Regards

 

[stranger]

fran,

Neat stuff,

It seems that MUCH of your offerings indicate that Christ is NOT ONLY the Son of God, but that He was MOST certainly 'created'. For MOST of what you offer states that 'before' the earth was COMPLETE, Christ WAS created. That 'the beginning' that SO MANY would have mean ETERNALLY, simply IS in RELATION to MANKIND.

I appreciate your offering. Especially the OT stuff.

MEC

Francis wrote:

Thus, in our sense of "creation", the Logos is not created, but begotten.

Hi Imagician,

No, Francis offers 'begotten' not created, and your presupposition inbuilt into your opening OP offers created (to make) not begotten.

You wrote:
Since there is ONLY ONE TRUE God, is it POSSIBLE for God to make ANOTHER God EQUAL to Himself?

BUT we have been through all this many times and I don't mind repeating 'begotten not created'.

 

[Imagican]

Ok Stranger,

So you believe that begotten is somehow 'different' than CREATED? I AM begotten of my 'fleshly father and mother'. Just as YOU were begotten of YOUR physical parents. NOW, you SHOW me ONE PLACE in The Word that offers a DISTINCTION of begotten that is DIFFERENT than what I have offered here. ONE place in The Word where begotten means SOMETHING other than CREATED.

Otherwise, your 'made up' definition is NO DIFFERENT than that MADE UP by the CC. In order for their 'man-made' beliefs to FIT what they interpreted from The Word, they simply 'made up' answers to scripture such as this 'begotten' being 'something OTHER THAN' what it TRULY is.

We have NUMEROUS references that I TOO have offered OVER AND OVER again to the BIBLE'S definition of BEGOTTEN. If it MEANS the 'SAME' thing in EVERY OTHER PART OF THE BIBLE, why do you 'suppose' that it means 'something different' in reference to Christ? Kinda makes you go hmmmmmmmmm, don't it? Of course not. For there are many that have chosen to simply 'follow MEN' rather than God through His Son.

So, unless you can CLEARLY show that the word 'begotten' means 'different' things when used in different places in The Word, your explanation is NOTHING other than what you have been 'taught' by OTHER MEN. It is NOT scriptural nor was it accepted BY THE APOSTLES that were EMPOWERED By God to spread the Gospel of Christ.

So, for those that have not had their understanding TAINTED by Catholicism, begotten means EXACTLY the 'same' thing EVERY TIME it is used in The Word. If you argue this point, PLEASE show some scriptural EVIDENCE or accept what has been offered THROUGH The Spirit.

Christ IS the ONLY Begotten Son of God. It's REALLY THAT simple. Yet there ARE many that will DENY the 'simplicity that IS Christ Jesus' and elect instead to accept some philosophical mysticism that is NOT contained within The Word. Am I surprised? NOT A BIT.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Ok Stranger,

So you believe that begotten is somehow 'different' than CREATED? I AM begotten of my 'fleshly father and mother'. Just as YOU were begotten of YOUR physical parents.

Begotten doesn't mean the same thing as created when we are discussing God, who transcends your human definitions. Remember that God is outside of time. His Wisdom is not a creation - that is a ridiculous statement. Again, I ask you, at what time did God exist without His Wisdom? If God didn't exist without His Wisdom, then the Second Person of the Trinity was not created in time. Thus, Wisdom is begotten outside of time in the eternal NOW. Wisdom issues forth, or is begotten yesterday, today, and tommorrow. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tommorrow.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

God has NEVER been 'without' His 'wisdom'. But there OBVIOUSLY came a 'time' that He chose to REVEAL His wisom to US through His Son.

And where do we find this explanation of 'begotten' being 'changed' into something OTHER THAN what it 'truly' means? We have this exact word used to denote a CHILD being BEGOTTEN of their FATHERS. Begotten then meaning to be BORN. To be BORN is to BE CREATED.

So, unless someone can show me scriptural evidence that God 'changed' the meaning pertaining to His Son, then I MUST point out that it is 'they' who have 'altered' The Word to SUIT their OWN desires.

And, once again, SEE what happens when one 'chooses' to believe something 'contrary' to The Word. They MUST alter scripture in order to 'make it FIT'. Whereas, if one simply accepts The Word AS OFFERED, it is SIMPLE to understand and interpret scripture. For The Word WAS given to US so that we would have SOMETHING to judge the 'truth' with. We ARE to use scripture in order to discern 'truth'. If ANYTHING contradicts or is CONTRARY to scripture, then we are to avoid it like the 'plague'. This we were WARNED over and over by EVERY apostle that dictated or wrote a part of the Gospel.

So, unless one can offer scriptural PROOF of 'begotten' being ANYTHING other than what it 'truly IS', I will avoid such doctrine or belief 'like the PLAGUE'.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

God has NEVER been 'without' His 'wisdom'. But there OBVIOUSLY came a 'time' that He chose to REVEAL His wisom to US through His Son.

Well, there you have it. Thus, God didn't create His own Wisdom. Wisdom is begotten from the Father. But regardless of whether He choose to reveal it or not, Wisdom has existed for all time. I existed before I revealed myself to you! Thus, this talk about God making another God is nonsense.

So, unless someone can show me scriptural evidence that God 'changed' the meaning pertaining to His Son, then I MUST point out that it is 'they' who have 'altered' The Word to SUIT their OWN desires

You want Scriptural evidence that God is unlike man? You want me to "prove" that God is transcendent beyond time? I am not going to waste my time. That should be self-evident that God and us see things a bit differently regarding time.

And, once again, SEE what happens when one 'chooses' to believe something 'contrary' to The Word.

Yea, I see what happens, alright. They come up with ridiculous notions that God created another God. The Scriptures say that the Word IS God - are you going to continue thinking there are two Gods?

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Imagican wrote:
fran,

God has NEVER been 'without' His 'wisdom'. But there OBVIOUSLY came a 'time' that He chose to REVEAL His wisom to US through His Son.


Well, there you have it. Thus, God didn't create His own Wisdom. Wisdom is begotten from the Father. But regardless of whether He choose to reveal it or not, Wisdom has existed for all time. I existed before I revealed myself to you! Thus, this talk about God making another God is nonsense.

Fran,

My replies will be in 'bold'.

God IS wisdom, if you will. But we KNOW that there came a 'time' that he 'bestowed' this widom upon His Son. For Christ Himself TELLS us that EVERYTHING was 'given' Him BY The Father, (who we KNOW IS God).

Imagican wrote:

So, unless someone can show me scriptural evidence that God 'changed' the meaning pertaining to His Son, then I MUST point out that it is 'they' who have 'altered' The Word to SUIT their OWN desires


You want Scriptural evidence that God is unlike man? You want me to "prove" that God is transcendent beyond time? I am not going to waste my time. That should be self-evident that God and us see things a bit differently regarding time.

No, just some 'scriptural evidence' that the word begotten means something DIFFERENT in reference to Christ verses the SAME word being used to discribe Abrahams descendants.

Imagican wrote:

And, once again, SEE what happens when one 'chooses' to believe something 'contrary' to The Word.


Yea, I see what happens, alright. They come up with ridiculous notions that God created another God. The Scriptures say that the Word IS God - are you going to continue thinking there are two Gods?

No, fran, there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. I simply asked if it were possible for God to 'create another' God. Only to show that it was neither necessary nor most likely POSSIBLE for ONE of a KIND to create a 'duplicate'. THAT would 'make' two Gods. And this I do NOT believe possible nor credible considerning ALL that we have been offered to the contrary.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

God IS wisdom, if you will. But we KNOW that there came a 'time' that he 'bestowed' this widom upon His Son. For Christ Himself TELLS us that EVERYTHING was 'given' Him BY The Father, (who we KNOW IS God).

Yes, to include His essence. Thus, the personification of Wisdom is God Himself, but not the same Person as the Father. And since this "begetting" occured outside of time, we cannot speak of it the same way that we do when considering normal creation.

So, unless someone can show me scriptural evidence that God 'changed' the meaning pertaining to His Son, then I MUST point out that it is 'they' who have 'altered' The Word to SUIT their OWN desires.

Is the Word God? Do you worship Jesus Christ? If you worship Jesus Christ AND He is NOT God, you are breaking the first commandment...

I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. Ex 20:2

Thus, we Christians worship Jesus Christ as God incarnate. Wisdom has established His "tent" here on earth... But He always existed - thus, we cannot say He was "created" in the natural sense.

Regards

 

[stranger]

Imagican wrote:

Ok Stranger,

So you believe that begotten is somehow 'different' than CREATED? I AM begotten of my 'fleshly father and mother'. Just as YOU were begotten of YOUR physical parents. NOW, you SHOW me ONE PLACE in The Word that offers a DISTINCTION of begotten that is DIFFERENT than what I have offered here. ONE place in The Word where begotten means SOMETHING other than CREATED.

Hi Imagician,

Yes I believe begotten is different to created.

For example: Jn3:18 speaks of Jesus as the only begotten Son while: 1 Cor11:9 which speaks of mans creation. See my following post. . .

Otherwise, your 'made up' definition is NO DIFFERENT than that MADE UP by the CC. In order for their 'man-made' beliefs to FIT what they interpreted from The Word, they simply 'made up' answers to scripture such as this 'begotten' being 'something OTHER THAN' what it TRULY is.

You will find consensus on this issue across the denominations - the cults usually deny either the humanity or divinty of Jesus.

We have NUMEROUS references that I TOO have offered OVER AND OVER again to the BIBLE'S definition of BEGOTTEN. If it MEANS the 'SAME' thing in EVERY OTHER PART OF THE BIBLE, why do you 'suppose' that it means 'something different' in reference to Christ? Kinda makes you go hmmmmmmmmm, don't it? Of course not. For there are many that have chosen to simply 'follow MEN' rather than God through His Son.

I don't suppose begotten means something different to begotten.

So, unless you can CLEARLY show that the word 'begotten' means 'different' things when used in different places in The Word, your explanation is NOTHING other than what you have been 'taught' by OTHER MEN. It is NOT scriptural nor was it accepted BY THE APOSTLES that were EMPOWERED By God to spread the Gospel of Christ.

All I have indicated is that the word created is not used of Christ but rather the word begotten IS. Now begotten is not used of Adam but created IS.

So, for those that have not had their understanding TAINTED by Catholicism, begotten means EXACTLY the 'same' thing EVERY TIME it is used in The Word. If you argue this point, PLEASE show some scriptural EVIDENCE or accept what has been offered THROUGH The Spirit.

You cannot argue orthodoxy against the orthodox. No one is arguing that begotten means something different in different passages.

Christ IS the ONLY Begotten Son of God. It's REALLY THAT simple. Yet there ARE many that will DENY the 'simplicity that IS Christ Jesus' and elect instead to accept some philosophical mysticism that is NOT contained within The Word. Am I surprised? NOT A BIT.

You cannot argue orthodoxy against the orthodox. I offer the next simple post with two propositions. See if you agree.

 

[stranger]

Imagican,

These are my propositions. . .

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father and therefore not created.

Adam was created by God and therefore not begotten.

 

[Imagican]

Imagican,

These are my propositions. . .

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father and therefore not created.

Adam was created by God and therefore not begotten.

Now let's speak of Abraham and HIS children, for these WERE 'begotten'.

And PLEASE explain to me HOW you come to the conclusion that for Christ to BE the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God He could NOT have been 'created'?

And PLEASE explain to ME and 'others' that this is NOTHING more than your PERSONAL opinion that is based on NOTHING scriptural.

Now, as PROOF of my understanding;

Hebrews 1:1

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Now, 'twist THESE words around'.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Now let's speak of Abraham and HIS children, for these WERE 'begotten'.

And PLEASE explain to me HOW you come to the conclusion that for Christ to BE the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God He could NOT have been 'created'?

And PLEASE explain to ME and 'others' that this is NOTHING more than your PERSONAL opinion that is based on NOTHING scriptural.

Imagican,

You refuse to admit that our concepts that apply to us are not the same concepts that apply to God.

Consider this...

Is God timeless?

And yet, the Scriptures say

But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8


Thus, are we to believe that God and man see time the exact same way - but that God's time moves slower? Sort of like one day on Neptune a really long time? Hardly. Other Scriptures verify that God is timeless and that this is a way of speaking to indicate that God is not effected by time like we are. God's ways are not our ways...

For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts Is 55:8,9.

Thus, by trying to put God in a box of your own logical design, you will miss out on the meaning of Scriptures. The fact is that God does not "create" a son in the same manner that humans do. Thus, all of this comparison to the Scripture's utilization of "begotten" is pointless, because God doesn't have a sexual union with a female to bring forth a Son in such a manner.

Since God's Wisdom has existed from the beginning of time, we cannot say that God created His own Wisdom. Time is a measure of change. Since God is changeless, the fact remains that Wisdom and God the Father existed from all time. The term "begotten" has different meanings when speaking about God - who does not "beget" children as humans do. To us, "begotten", when referring to the Logos, indicates that Wisdom springs forth eternally from the Father, not in a one-time "birth". Remember, God exists outside of time and is changeless. Thus, He is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow. Jesus is ALSO described in the same manner - thus, the Christians see Him as God, also.

Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same for ever. Heb 13:8

HOW can something that is "created" be the same for all time?

Your literalism is blinding you to the fact that the Son of God is God as well. Of the same essence in everyway - distinct in ONLY His origin.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Joe
Just wanted to pop in here and say that I appreciate your postings in this thread and I too have learned from it....Keep on doing good work....

 

[Imagican]

fran,

You ARE one 'deceptive' guy.

Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same for ever. Heb 13:8

You say that this scripture STATES that Christ HAS ALWAYS been. When in REALITY it states that 'yesterday,,,,,,,,,And TODAY,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the SAME forever. This is NOT stating that Christ HAS been forever. It STARTS and finishes a 'timeline'. before NOW and AFTER. So HOW do you 'see' this scripture as stating that Christ HAS ALWAYS BEEN?

MEC

 

[stranger]

Now let's speak of Abraham and HIS children, for these WERE 'begotten'.

And PLEASE explain to me HOW you come to the conclusion that for Christ to BE the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God He could NOT have been 'created'?

And PLEASE explain to ME and 'others' that this is NOTHING more than your PERSONAL opinion that is based on NOTHING scriptural.

I come to the conclusion that for Christ to BE the only begotten Son of God scripture MUST state it plainly. If Christ were created scripture likewise MUST state it but because it does not I follow what scripture does state.

Since you raise the issue of Abraham my third propositions is:

Abraham begot his descendants. . . but he did not create them.

This is a straightforward statement.


[quoted7c9]Now, as PROOF of my understanding;

Hebrews 1:1

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Now, 'twist THESE words around'.

[/quoted7c9]

I note that you quote Hebrews 1:1-9. Do I twist scripture in your eyes?

 

[jgredline]

j,

You ARE one 'deceptive' guy.

Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same for ever. Heb 13:8

You say that this scripture STATES that Christ HAS ALWAYS been. When in REALITY it states that 'yesterday,,,,,,,,,And TODAY,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the SAME forever. This is NOT stating that Christ HAS been forever. It STARTS and finishes a 'timeline'. before NOW and AFTER. So HOW do you 'see' this scripture as stating that Christ HAS ALWAYS BEEN?

MEC

Mec
What are u talking about?

 

[jgredline]

j,

You ARE one 'deceptive' guy.

Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same for ever. Heb 13:8

You say that this scripture STATES that Christ HAS ALWAYS been. When in REALITY it states that 'yesterday,,,,,,,,,And TODAY,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the SAME forever. This is NOT stating that Christ HAS been forever. It STARTS and finishes a 'timeline'. before NOW and AFTER. So HOW do you 'see' this scripture as stating that Christ HAS ALWAYS BEEN?

MEC

Mec
What are u talking about? Please break it down to me in simple Spanish so I understand it

 

[francisdesales]

Joe
Just wanted to pop in here and say that I appreciate your postings in this thread and I too have learned from it....Keep on doing good work....

Ditto. Glad to see that although we have some differences in theology, in the end, we share many more common points of belief.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

j,

You ARE one 'deceptive' guy.

Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same for ever. Heb 13:8

You say that this scripture STATES that Christ HAS ALWAYS been. When in REALITY it states that 'yesterday,,,,,,,,,And TODAY,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the SAME forever. This is NOT stating that Christ HAS been forever. It STARTS and finishes a 'timeline'. before NOW and AFTER. So HOW do you 'see' this scripture as stating that Christ HAS ALWAYS BEEN?

MEC

I am sorry you think I am "deceptive". I truly believe in what I am writing, I am not trying to "trick" you. I am merely trying to show you in the Scriptures (since you will not accept Apostolic Tradition) why I believe what I do.

"...the same for ever". Doesn't Scripture say that God created THROUGH the Word? Nothing but God existed - and the Word was there. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. And thus, what He was before creation, He still is and will remain so. Only God possesses this charecteristic.

And finally, to revisit my question that you haven't answered yet - how do you treat Jesus Christ? Do you worship Him?

Regards