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The Saintman's New Combined Thread

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#41
wondering,

I encourage you to use selective commentaries as many are written by God's teachers for the church. A good commentary is not one person's opinion but interacts with others views on the verses. If you ask a priest or OzSpen or any other person in the church, you are still getting only one person's understanding of Scripture.

One of the problems we run into when discussing Matt 28:19-20 is that there is an unorthodox/heretical group in Pentecostalism that promotes the 'Jesus Only' anti-Trinitarian, Oneness Pentecostal view. See: What are the beliefs of Jesus only / oneness Pentecostals? (Got Questions?)

The article, 'In whose name are we supposed to baptize?' supports the 'Jesus only' position and no Trinitarian formula in the baptism teaching in Matt 28:19

However, in 'Matthew 28:19 Is Genuine', this author provides evidence of the Trinitarian formula used by early church fathers before AD 300, including Ignatius of Antioch's (died about AD 107) Letter to the Philippians (ch 2) that supported the Trinitarian formula of Matt 28:19.

So by the end of the first century an early church father, Ignatius of Antioch, supported the Trinitarian formula for baptism in Matt 28:19. This also is supported by Tertullian (ca. AD 200) in 'On Baptism (ch 13)'.

So, I'm not of the view that the Trinitarian formula for baptism was added after AD 300. There is evidence to the contrary.

My sister, brother-in-law and niece come tonight to stay for a couple of days. I had better get this house looking more respectable.

Oz
Amen to all that!
I know what you're speaking of.
I had a conversation with just such a person.
What I brought up was the Didache which specifically states how to do baptism.
It was written between 50 and 120 AD, probably closer to about 60-90.
But, alas, they deny everything. He told me it was not an inspired document.
I asked if the document he sent me to on the net was inspired?????

Here's Chapter 3 of the Didache. BTW, I know some of the ECF and I like Ignatius a lot --- he knew John the Apostle. (the Didache might be separated differently)

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

Source: http://thedidache.com/
 
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#43
is it wrong to call him god of israel or something else he needs be called
I think it is wrong to call him outside of his name, that way a person can know who it is by what the bible says.

Because the bible gives us his title of his names.He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. 1 Kings 18:36. At the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/22-32.htm
 
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#44
GOd of creation
Revealed His name first to Moses as Yahweh.......
Genesis 3:13-15
Before that He was called Elohim
Or the God of abraham isaac and jacob.....

Jews today refuse to call the name Yahweh...
As it is considered tooo holy....
 
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#45
God said

Exodus 3:14-15

14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

As WalterandDebbie posted the following bible link

Matthew 22:32
32 “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

I am who I am is the God over all creation and the God of all people.
Jews and gentiles.

He is not just God but he is also the Father, ABBA Father

Romans 8:15
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

I am who I am is our Father.

Why not call him that?
 
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#46
Amen to all that!
I know what you're speaking of.
I had a conversation with just such a person.
What I brought up was the Didache which specifically states how to do baptism.
It was written between 50 and 120 AD, probably closer to about 60-90.
But, alas, they deny everything. He told me it was not an inspired document.
I asked if the document he sent me to on the net was inspired?????

Here's Chapter 3 of the Didache. BTW, I know some of the ECF and I like Ignatius a lot --- he knew John the Apostle. (the Didache might be separated differently)

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

Source: http://thedidache.com/
wondering,

The Didache is an interesting document in that it has no stated author and a copy of it was found in a monastery in Constantinople in 1873. That copy is housed in a museum in Moscow.

Like the Christian writings of any document other than the Bible, it is not 'inspired'. However, it gives some insight into the teachings of the early church, being dated by most scholars to the first century or into early second century. The document found in Constantinople dates to about AD 1056 (source).

The Didache, Ignatius of Antioch and Tertullian confirm the Trinitarian baptismal formula well before AD 300.

Oz
 
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#47
God doesnt need a name because why would someone of his status even be named, but I guess a name is needed for man to know who God is. How can his name be God, there are many gods, even if he is the one true living God, because there are other gods its giving him a name that is associated with other gods. And Lord, there are many Lords.

I don't think he even has a name. Just the I am who I am. He is who he is Most High Father.
 
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#48
Why do we call Jesus "Jesus" When his english name is Joshua?. If we speak english then his name is Joshua. Just like the other Joshuas in the bible. There is multiple Jesus in the bible but they only give one Joshua the translation change, Yeshua, Joshua, Iesus, Jesus.
 
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#49
God said

Exodus 3:14-15

14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

As WalterandDebbie posted the following bible link

Matthew 22:32
32 “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

I am who I am is the God over all creation and the God of all people.
Jews and gentiles.

He is not just God but he is also the Father, ABBA Father

Romans 8:15
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

I am who I am is our Father.

Why not call him that?
John 17:3

http://biblehub.com/john/17-3.htm
 
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#50
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#53
I never knew that.

Does that mean it relates to the trinity?
Wrg,

Good to see you posting!

Could it be a pointer to the Trinity OR gods creating the universe?

For verification of Elohim as plural in Gen 1:1, see: Genesis 1:1 refers to God as a plural Being (Chuck Missler).

There are a couple other verses in Gen 1 & 3 that also use Elohim, the plural of El / Eloah, for God. See: Why does God refer to Himself in the plural in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22? (Got Questions). The language of Gen 1:26 (ESV) is, 'Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"'.

Since Elohim is plural, shouldn't the translation be, 'In the beginning, gods created the heavens and the earth'? See: Does Elohim in Gen. 1:1 mean God or gods? | Bible.org

Oz
 
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#54
is it wrong to call him god of israel or something else he needs be called
What does the Scripture also call him? See 1 Kings 8:23 (NIV): 'Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven above or on earth below—you who keep your covenant of love with your servants who continue wholeheartedly in your way'.
 
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#55
Wrg,

Good to see you posting!

Could it be a pointer to the Trinity OR gods creating the universe?

For verification of Elohim as plural in Gen 1:1, see: Genesis 1:1 refers to God as a plural Being (Chuck Missler).

There are a couple other verses in Gen 1 & 3 that also use Elohim, the plural of El / Eloah, for God. See: Why does God refer to Himself in the plural in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22? (Got Questions). The language of Gen 1:26 (ESV) is, 'Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"'.

Since Elohim is plural, shouldn't the translation be, 'In the beginning, gods created the heavens and the earth'? See: Does Elohim in Gen. 1:1 mean God or gods? | Bible.org

Oz
Good to see you Oz.

I know the verse "let us make man in our own image"
To be honest I never related it to plurality and the name Elohim.

Not sure what you mean though " shouldn't the translation be gods"
 
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#56
Not sure what you mean though " shouldn't the translation be gods"
Wrg,

If the singular is God/god, then the plural is Gods/gods. This is an argument sometimes put up by antagonists that it is dishonest to translate Gen 1:1 as 'In the beginning, God' when it means, 'In the beginning gods'.

I found this to be an acceptable explanation:

The reason this plural noun is translated into other languages as a singular noun is because it's being used with a singular verb.

This would be comparable to saying "Ants is here to stay" instead of "Ants are here to stay". It turns this plural word ("ants") into a proper noun.

Example with singular verb
In Genesis 1:1 (referenced in the question), we see a great example of the plural elohim being used with a singular verb:



In this text, elohim is being matched with the singular verb bra. This indicates elohim is the proper noun and it's translated as "God".

However, when Elohim is used with a plural verb, it's translated as plural "gods". See this example from 1 Sam 28:13:



Here, elohim is used with olim, which is also plural. This is, therefore, translated as "gods" (or sometimes "spirits").

King James Translation (emphasis added): 'And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth' (source).​

Oz
 
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