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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Who sustains the existence of all things?
- Thread starter chessman
- Start date
Experience with those who don't like my answers. Am I storming on here challenging your understanding? Rather I am being interrogated about a understanding that I think is debatable but such debate is not welcome here.. You know my answers. You are not seeking understanding. You can not accept my answers. If you didn't believe before why are you asking again?
Begotten before all worlds but not made. I agree in part.
End of discussion.
chessman
Member
??? They are your answers. What’s for me to like or dislike about them?
No, not at all. I enjoyed the conversation.
It was just a couple of questions about a passage of Scripture and how it might be reconciled within your view of the Father Son relationship.
Actually, I’m not sure I ever asked you that particular question in that way using that Scripture. But, yes, I know you think there was a time past when the Son was not. What I don’t understand is why, given the Scriptures presented. I have several guesses but really, IDK. If there was a time in the past when the Son was not the Son, then during that time the Father was not the Father (simple logic). Plus the Son is the radiance of the Father’s glory. See, during this hypothetical time when the Son was not, the Father would have not radiance of glory.
The Fathet Son relationship
Plus, the Son upholds all tbings by His power. Who upheld the Father when there was no Son???
I’m pretty sure I am. And hay, I’m me.
Try me. They’re yours, not mine. I might not agree with them, but I’ll accept that they are yours.
Because you answered the first question in accordance with the passage’s message of a Father Son relationship, so I was just wondering if you’d also answer the second in accordance with its message too.
My answer is; If the Father Son relationship exists the way it does now (Father/Son side by side saving peopy) and will exist so in the eternal future the way it does now (Father/Son side by side saving people) then it also existed that way in the eternal past per this passage:
Before Me there was no God formed [see you cannot have another god before the Father. No such thing as a Sonless god.] , And there will be none after Me. [you just can’t have God changing the Father/Son relationship]“I, even I, am the Lord, And there is no savior besides Me. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; [ a Sonless father is a strange god] So you are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And I am God. “Even from eternity I am He,
Same God we have now [Father Son relationship] is the same God from eternity.
Ok one last time.??? They are your answers. What’s for me to like or dislike about them?
No, not at all. I enjoyed the conversation.
It was just a couple of questions about a passage of Scripture and how it might be reconciled within your view of the Father Son relationship.
Actually, I’m not sure I ever asked you that particular question in that way using that Scripture. But, yes, I know you think there was a time past when the Son was not. What I don’t understand is why, given the Scriptures presented. I have several guesses but really, IDK. If there was a time in the past when the Son was not the Son, then during that time the Father was not the Father (simple logic). Plus the Son is the radiance of the Father’s glory. See, during this hypothetical time when the Son was not, the Father would have not radiance of glory.
The Fathet Son relationship
Plus, the Son upholds all tbings by His power. Who upheld the Father when there was no Son???
I’m pretty sure I am. And hay, I’m me.
Try me. They’re yours, not mine. I might not agree with them, but I’ll accept that they are yours.
Because you answered the first question in accordance with the passage’s message of a Father Son relationship, so I was just wondering if you’d also answer the second in accordance with its message too.
My answer is; If the Father Son relationship exists the way it does now (Father/Son side by side saving peopy) and will exist so in the eternal future the way it does now (Father/Son side by side saving people) then it also existed that way in the eternal past per this passage:
Before Me there was no God formed [see you cannot have another god before the Father. No such thing as a Sonless god.] , And there will be none after Me. [you just can’t have God changing the Father/Son relationship]“I, even I, am the Lord, And there is no savior besides Me. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; [ a Sonless father is a strange god] So you are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And I am God. “Even from eternity I am He,Same God we have now [Father Son relationship] is the same God from eternity.
How was the Son who was all that the Father is? The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. And that was before anything else existed for what was created at Gods command and by His will He did through His Firstborn. Jesus is before all things except the Father alone. It wasn't man that started Christianity for it was God who made Jesus both Lord and Christ setting Jesus above all making Jesus the ruler of Gods creation.
As Paul wrote
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
As Jesus stated to the Father
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
As risen Jesus stated about the Father
Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
I neither understate Jesus for He is ALL that the Father is nor overstate Him for He has always been the Son. I believe all that is written about the Son.
Jesus and the Father are ONE as Jesus stated it was the Father living in Him doing His work. That Jesus's teaching was not His own but from the one who sent Him. For in these last days God has spoken to us by His Son.
The Son who was, (His spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him and the Father was living in Him.
Mary conceived by the HS. A body. Jesus's spirit was placed in that body.
"Father into your hands I commit my spirit"
Some claim Idolatry in regard to the trinity Jesus. That's utter nonsense. Are they Jealous for the Fathers sake? For it is the Father Himself who glorifies His Son. Oh that all would see Jesus as God for then perhaps they would go to Him for life which is what God intended. So those who claim Jesus's life began in the womb of Mary have the greater error. And those who believe Jesus is the arch angel Michael have the greater error.
Its quite simple
Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is
No, He has always been the Son.
Note the word Son.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Please provide the references when quoting Scripture. See ToS 2.7. It is also helpful even for those of public domain so other readers can easily find them.
Truth7t7
Member
Unless your talking to a Muslim who believes God has no Son?
Truth7t7
Member
Scripture teaches this to be true
Genesis 1:26KJV
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Since I believe Jesus has always been the Son -YES
Yes or No did Jesus call the Father the only true God?
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Jesus's words are from the Father and they are binding. As in judgments made it will be His words that prevail.
John7:16
Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.
John 12:49
For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
John 14:10
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jesus is the word of the Father(God)
Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
John7:16
Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.
John 12:49
For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
John 14:10
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jesus is the word of the Father(God)
Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
About the Son who was
Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”e
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
Hebrews 10:5 -a body prepared as Jesus, the being who was,-not a word, stated
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
As that body was about to die Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last
As shown it was the Spirit of the Father living in Jesus with His Spirit - If Jesus always was and always was God how does that hold to one God? Yet Jesus's words are binding because he spoke the very words of the Father as shown.
Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”e
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
Hebrews 10:5 -a body prepared as Jesus, the being who was,-not a word, stated
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
As that body was about to die Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last
As shown it was the Spirit of the Father living in Jesus with His Spirit - If Jesus always was and always was God how does that hold to one God? Yet Jesus's words are binding because he spoke the very words of the Father as shown.
stovebolts
Member
I think everyone needs to start finding common ground in order to build each other up rather than digging for differences we all already know exist. It does nothing but cause arguments. If anyone is out to just argue differences, I recomend finding a new forum.
If this cant start happening on your own self control, things will start changing to where they will.
chessman , Randy
Thank you.
JohnDB
If this cant start happening on your own self control, things will start changing to where they will.
chessman , Randy
Thank you.
JohnDB
chessman
Member
Thanks. Me too.
Yes. And He called His Father, “Father” and then explained to those disciples listening in on His conversation with His Father what it is to know them.
Jesus spoke these things, and having lifted-up His eyes to heaven, said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You— just as You gave Him authority over all flesh in order that as to all that You have given Him, He may give eternal life to them. And this is eternal life: that they may be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom You sent-forth.
John 17:1-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:1-3&version=DLNT
Jim Parker
Member
The Logos already, always existed with God "in the beginning."
Jesus of Nazareth is the human being in who God the Logos became incarnate around 4 BC.
People tend to get confused about that.