Would you call this abortion?

[stovebolts]

BTW, do you know greek? How about Hebrew? or aramaic?
I've done some light studying and I know a friend at work that speaks (kinda speaks cause we really don't know how to pronounce some of the words. It's a best guess thingy) and reads all three. It's simply amazing when he starts reading the dead sea scrolls in front of me (but only when I ask...because he has humility).
My point is, for the most part, they carry the same meaning and the same message that was intended. It is true that you can delve into the language and bring about a more robust understanding at times, but then you can do the same thing if you break out a dictionary and study the english language.
Now, you can debate translations and I'd put my money on the KJV, although I use the NIV and the NKJV.
That aside, of course you need to communicate with the Lord. But what is communication?
Cause, distance and effect with intention for attention which results in duplication and thereby manifests as understanding.
That's it. That's communication! You can achieve this through various different methods. God can speak to you here on this forum through evey one else's words. He can speak to you through prayer and he can speak to you through the Bible to mention a few. Your job is to duplicate God's word so that you can understand what he's trying to say because believe me, his intention is clear as well as his Cause. The question really becomes, has "He" grabbed your attention? Or has somebody else.
The only way to really know, is through the written word WITH the Holy Spirit as your guide and not the great deceiver.

 

[stovebolts]

I do not call you retarded, nuts or any other words that you have been told or called by others. I simply call you brother in this particular walk across the pebbles.
The great deciever is not Christ. The Great Deceiver is Satan. And he deceives by centering us on ourselves under the pretense or guise of Christ at times.
As far as some of your other statements, I take offense that you put me in a box and assume that I am taught through the church I attend or am rote through scripture. No my brother, I speak from the trials that I have endured and God's wisdom that has been revealed to me along the way. (and a path that I will continue for the rest of my days) I suggest you do not assume and when in doubt, ask in the future.
I speak to you through the experiences that I have endured. I write these words because the spirit calls me to write them. The great deceiver would have you believe that I speak out of a book that I was taught. No my friend, I believe you are wrong and are being mis-led by the many intentions that came before myself.
That being said, I validate your issue and truly understand where your coming from. I simply understand it from a different perspective now. Which is different from when I was 29, and will probably be different to a degree when I'm 49 as God reveals more and more as were ready to accept it.
In Christ's longsuffering.
Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

Ohh, and if I added

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, whatever things you desire, when you pray, believe that you will receive them, and you shall have them.

Would you call that a mis-translation or would you call that a validation to your faith / belief? For some people, they understand this before they find it in the bible. For others, they search for the understanding after they have read it. How does it speak to you?

Do you not receive hope when you read

Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive your sight: your faith has saved you.

Or...
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

Each passage has it's place in scripture and represents different occations. Now go out and put it in context and Let God speak to you through the Holy Spirit by the words that He gave us.

 

[Blazin Bones]

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=10634

This topic was started over abortion. This is s great topic the two of you are discussing, but I don't want to see this becoming an arguement. Please go to either of those threads, or we can create a new thread for this topic. I know that Berean and I love discussing what translations to use and why.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Take this discussion to one of the links or make a new thread. This is a great topic, but I'm sure some users would still like to discuss abortion.

 

[stovebolts]

1. You Acknowledge some women will die during pregnancy.
2. You Acknowledge some women’s life can be saved threw abortion
3. You Acknowledge murder is a sin.
4. I believe you would agree me stopping you (by force “Jail, beating, family threat, held, anything that one could do to force someone into a situation) from doing anything you could to save your own life short of taking someone else’s life. Would be a sin.
With that said.
1. We say abortion is murder.
2. Logical people will agree forcing someone to death is murder.

So my question would be WHAT makes you think you have the right to SIN?
I see 2 murders in the topic and I refuse to commit either one.

Let's Focus on 4, then the lower 2. all else is a mute point as you have my full agreement.

#4
We have two different things going on here. Please follow.
1st. You can't force anyone to do anything. You can only persuade or influene. Regardless, they are always responsible without excuse.
2nd. If we create a law that prevents a freedom that results in murder, that law would be wrong.

I'm sure you would agree with my second point. Now here's the problem. How do you enforce that law to make sure that it's not taken advantage of? Answer, you cant because of my 1st point. It swings both ways. You can't force ANYONE to follow the law.

Before we go any further, let me tell you what I believe. The bible reinforces my beleif that Anger and Hate is murder. Hate and anger are the cause of murder. But Christ died, offered up his life for us knowing that he was going to die. Christ was a sacrafice for US so that WE can have LIFE.

So you see, there is a diffence in which a life is taken and not all of them are to be viewed as murder. Yes, there was murder envolved with the death of Christ. But there was also salvation.

So, do we sacrafice a child so that the mother might live IF we are 99.9% positive that the mothers life will be terminated due to the pregnancy? I also think that we need to look at whether the child would survive. IF BOTH CHILD AND MOTHER WOULD DIE, I WOULD SUPPORT THE SACRAFICE OF THE CHILD TO SAVE THE MOTHER, BUT UNDER NO OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES. Christ did not die in vain, neither should a woman.
Either way, I believe that is a personal question that the mother needs to answer with great thought.

Personally, I would stand in front of a bus if it could save my kid's life and not think twice about it. Would I call that murder? No, because I saved a life that I deeply cared about. And it's almost ironic, because that's what Christ did for us. He stood in front of the Bus so that YOU and I could have life.

I love my wife dearly, and I know that she would give her life for any of our children if it meant prolonging their life under any circumstance.

I can't force these morals or ideas down anyone's throat. People will always find alternate ways to show how selfish they are, even if it means using a coat hanger. Personally, let them use a coat hanger if they are that selfish. They will reap what they sow and I am in no way responsible for twisted logic that says I "forced" a woman to abort her child with a coat hanger because I didn't support legalized abortion. Her other option would be to have the child and use our adoption system, or go to Canada or Mexico or some other country. She still has a choice.

#2. I only see murder, when it's done out of selfishness or anger. I can't regulate how sombody will keep their ethics or morals in check, but history shows that humans are pretty self centered. If I am to err, I'll err in conservatism.
That being said, I have to ask myself. If 1/2 of 1% of all women that got abortions fell into what I would agree as not being murder, yet the other 99 1/2 % took their childs life out of their own vanity, then how could I support a law that I knew I was allowing children to be murdered?
Again, I'm not God and I don't like being in the position of passing or denying any laws that you are suggesting. But at least you know how and why I why I would vote the way I would.

 

[DrDiotte]

23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

 

[stovebolts]

And to me that is FORCE if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to give them your wallet you could make the choice of not doing it but if you decided to give it to him are they not still not a fault for robbing you?

Because we can cast "Blame" or "Justify" the choices we make, does that make us "Victims" and "survivors"? When we have to choose the best worst choice? Example, I can whine and cry and be upset and be a big baby because my wallet got stole and can't pay my rent. That doesn't resolve the fact that I can't pay my rent nor does it mean that I shouldn't still have to pay my rent. Now, what do you do? It's the choices that you make from that point forward that count because those choices will either bring additional pain to the fact that you was robbed, or it can ease the fact that you aint got no money ta pay da rent. My point is, you can either be the victim to circumstance, or you can be a winner and make lemon aid out of lemons. The choice is ours. Control what you can control, and don't be a victim. Simple.

Let me see if I understand you..
You do not support a law that says abortion is legal.
But do you support a law that makes it illegal?
I took this as saying you don’t

Either way, I believe that is a personal question that the mother needs to answer with great thought.

correct me if I am wrong..

I am against abortion when by natural means, there would be at least one survivor. The only way I would support abortion would be in the cases where both the woman and the child would die as a result of not having the abortion.

Now when it comes to someone else’s life I am very greedy because it is not my right to put your life at risk all I want to do is save it.

Greed = selfishness. Think about what you are saying here. You are correct to say that it's not your right to put my life at risk. But what stops you from doing just that? It certainly isn't any law... And let me ask you this. Is saving my life worth the chance that thousands of other people would willingly kill their own babies so that ME, I, MYSELF would be saved because YOU cared about ME? I'm sorry, that's selfish and your allowing thousands the "Right" to kill, so you could save 1. The math just doesn't add up... Remember what I said earlier about being in a position to make the best bad choice... It applies here.

I love my wife dearly, and I know that she would give her life for any of our children if it meant prolonging their life under any circumstance.

But would YOU be willing to make the choice to give her life up? I could never do that.

Maybe this is where we differ. The choice was never mine, with the exception to how I choose to deal with her response... Whatever my wife choose, I'd support her. I'd also like to add here, that the two choices that she would be presented with here would be that either they both die or she die as the result of her pregnancy that the child may live. Any other situation, and we'd be talking adoption if we didn't feel we were ready for a child for ANY reason.

If someone broke in your house tied your children, your wife , and you up and said to you.
“I am going shoot one of your children if you pick the one, but if you refuse to pick one I am going to shoot them allâ€Â

This doesn't even belong in this conversation. It has absolutly no relevance except to jusify a distorted view and add fuel to the apathy of being victimized.

They will reap what they sow and I am in no way responsible for twisted logic that says I "forced" a woman to abort her child with a coat hanger because I didn't support legalized abortion. Her other option would be to have the child and use our adoption system, or go to Canada or Mexico or some other country. She still has a choice.

You are right the only thing you could consider yourself responsible for would be taking her safest option away from her.

So killing a healthy child is safer than bringing a child to term and then putting the child up for adoption? Or are we talking about that 1 in a thousand where both mother and child would die as a result of NOT having the termination?
Again, I'd be all for saving the mother if both were doomed AND the mother could live with that. It would be a choice that she would have to make and I'd have to accept her choice.
But... I'd need a guarantee that innocent children wouldn't die which I don't think is possible. It's in our nature to be self centered...and greedy.

One more thing if we would make abortion murder i think we should go back and charge them all with murder don't you? Bottom line if its murder its murder and not just NEW abortions should get punished.

Abortion IS murder my friend. Hate to break the bad news to ya. So far, I don't see anyone going to jail when they get out of the 7-11 express checkout lane of the abortion clinics...
On the other side, laws are used as deterents. You can't go retro with that kind of law without a warning period. It would be like getting a speeding ticket in an area that was posted 55, but then the cops decided that for a certain stretch they would change it to 35 without posting it. It simply wouldn't hold up in our judicial system.

 

[bibleberean]

That is right Stovebolts

Abortion is murder. That is the bottom line. The rare exceptions do not negate that fact...

Those who want to make excuses can tell it to the judge.

 

[DrDiotte]

23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

 

[bibleberean]

"You believe it is, I believe it is, science don’t so to enforce your belief is wrong. As I have pointed out."


1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

 

[DrDiotte]

23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

 

[bibleberean]

Just as i said we already believe the Lord thinks its wrong.

You confuse the Government and the Lord.
Next i guess we need to make a law that goes with someone else's beliefs.
I believe you should be in jail for promoting taking ANYONES freedom.
So are you willing to make my belief also?
:-D

I say we make my law first then the law you want could NEVER be.

I believe abortion should be illegal except in the rarest of circumstances.

Taking the life of another human being without a cause is wrong...

Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

Science does not approve or disapprove of murder. Science isn't a person.

But... good science does prove that a human being exists in the mothers womb.

So does common sense.

It is absolutely asinine, moronic and demonic to believe, teach or promote anything else.

 

[DrDiotte]

23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

 

[bibleberean]

1. The baby can not live without the life support system of the mother (I call that clinically dead)
2. We don’t even know if the baby will EVER become an air breathing, self sustaining life.
3. Without the woman a baby could never have become.

bibleberean responds:

1. The baby cannot live on its own after it is off the life support system of the mother. If no one feeds the baby and if it is neglected by the child will die on it's own.

Does this mean the baby is clinically dead?

Nothing personal but the logic you use is not only insane but demented.

2. The baby is already alive. What an asinine way of looking at a child God has already given life.

3. Without God and the seed God created in man no one would be around.

What does that have to do with giving a woman the "right to kill her baby?"

The line of reasoning you are using is warped... :o

Nothing personal...

 

[stovebolts]

bibleberean
You sum that up so well, there is nothing left for me to say on this thread as far as I'm concerned.
Enjoy your weekend.

 

[bibleberean]

bibleberean
You sum that up so well, there is nothing left for me to say on this thread as far as I'm concerned.
Enjoy your weekend.

You do the same...

 

[Free]

DrDiotte,

You have not showed me ONE scripture that backs up your claim that God would want man to kill a woman to save a child and even if you could you must still understand the difference between Man and God you can say it’s not FORCING but I think you know better.

How about you show one Scripture where it God would want man to kill a child to save a woman?

 

[stovebolts]

Be Pro-Life fight laws that would kill women!!!
I would be all for a law that makes it illegal for a doctor to remove a baby and not try to save the baby but will NEVER support a law that WILL kill women

Let me see if I have this right.

Be FOR LIFE. Fight laws that would kill Women.

Why not fight laws that would kill children and women?

I would be all for a law that makes it illegal for a doctor to remove a baby and not try to save the baby

So, your all for a law that allows a doctor to remove a baby. BUT, he has to try and save the baby.
Would you define WHY the baby would have to be removed? (And be specific. "So the mother wouldn't die" is not adequate). Also, what would the doctor have to do (to what extent) to save the child's life.

but will NEVER support a law that WILL kill women

So, is this the clause that makes it ok to kill babies, so the women will live?

I don't think that anyone here on these boards would be for any law that arbitrarily kills women. However, in context, it infers that we should be willing to kill a baby, if that action would be able save the mothers life with the imagination that we weren't really killing a child, because the intention would be focused on the woman's life, while the life of the child would be minimized. The justification of the death of the child would be the pretense that it died on it's own, because if you remove the child and it dies, it dies on it's own because it has mysteriously "Lost" it's life support. But that's ok, because we went into this whole thing with the imagination that we wern't really killing a child and we were really focused on doing all we could do to save the child, it's simply not our fault that the baby lost it's natural life support means. Psychologist call this denial.

So you escape the responsibility of killing the child because of your initial premise which begs the question, how does one go about prematurely removing a baby while maintaining the integrity of the baby's life?

Here is the verse I back my decision on.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill <ratsach>.

ratsach (strongs 7523)
a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).

Kill in Hebrew, from xcr. Click here

Because as a nation, we are responsible for each other or God will bring in justice.

Isaiah 1:18-21 Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land: But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it. How has the faithful city become a harlot! it was full of justice; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

For your argument to be valid. Tell me again how you can NOT kill a child by saving the mothers life?? Then tell me the impact of your decisions and how society will benifit as a whole. Lastly, tell me how your answer is in alignment with God's written word. (Find me scripture to back your stance).

 

[stovebolts]

Easy here are two that back up my stance 100%
Thou shalt not kill
Love thy neighbor as thy self

The Law I support will ultimately let the choice to sin on the woman.
The law you support would mean you are the one sinning. And as you stated it still don’t stop the women from sinning if the choose too.
That’s is why I know I am the same side as the Lord (What more can one do but follow his wishes)

Matthew 22:36-40 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Which is agreement with the OT
Leviticus 19:18 You shall not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

and is summarized here
Romans 13:9 For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Would you kill your own child? The choice you don't make, is as if you have made a choice in the other direction.

The greatest commandment is to Love your God with all your heart. The second is to love your neighbor.
God says not to kill. My neighbor tells me we can justify it. I still love you.

God tells us we are responsible for our nation. You seem to overlook that responsibility by allowing others the choice to make bad choices easily and legally. By legalizing abortion, you have just put your blessing on the process to kill innocent children by abhorant means which you freely admit.
By supporting a law that allows innocent lives to be lost, you are just as guilty as murder as the one committing the murder.
As your aware, Laws will not stop anyone from breaking them. But they do act as a deterant. Look at your own children. Do you not have rules that they must follow? Aren't these rules the same as Laws?
So your child doesn't comprehend that running out in the street will get him hurt. Do you allow him that choice or do you discipline him until he obeys until he is of age to understand. Fear can be a good motivator when used properly and the Bible tells us to be fearful of the Lord because we are not capable of seeing the cars as they come down our street.