Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[jasonc]

Sometimes the simple answer is the best answer, I agree with you that is what a Christian believes.


I agree, I don't see a loss of salvation either. Thanks, Brother Eugene.

Your list of what a Christian needs, I agree with. Thank you for this thought.

My question was what does a Christian need to Do?
If one is a Christian then they are ready. It's not like one needs to be watching for the bus to come or they might miss it.

thank god he doesn't work like that.

 

[turnorburn]

The doctrine of futurism came out of the counter reformation for the sole purpose of post dating the time of antichrist and its still continuing to this day everyone that is almost everyone is looking for his arrival at some time in the future.. That's where i was going with those verses.. When the devil gets caught wearing the Emperors clothes in public he snaps into action..

tob

 

[Karl]

All the billions that will be left behind are not going to care if they take the mark as they have not Christ found in them and will certainly follow that of the son of perdition for their well being not knowing who they are actually bowing down to as they have made themselves ready for damnation for rejecting Christ.

Sis, as you know, we need to compare Scripture with Scripture to understand what it's saying, so let's begin with Israel, Daniel tells us the AC will make a covenant with Israel that will allow them to rebuild their Temple and begin worship, until the 3 1/2 year mark when he declares to them he is God and demands them to worship him, at this time many Jews will will have their eyes opened and refuse, they are the remnant of Israel that will be saved, however, Rev 7:9, 14 talks about a great number of people that will have washed their robes themselves (through decapitation) and be made righteous, these are those in the false religions and cults that have never heard the true Gospel, how will they hear it, three different ways, i44,000 Jewish evangelists proclaiming the Gospel throughout the world Rev 7:4 an Angel flying around the world preaching the Gospel Rev 14:6, and two witnesses in Jerusalem doing miracles, it says great multitudes from all of the people of the world, so we see many that will trust in Jesus during the Trib.

God does save a remnant out of Israel, not the nation, but the man of God that believe Christ is the true Messiah.

I believe in a Rapture of the Church as us being the Bride of Christ being caught up to meet Him in the Clouds, but also believe we will go through everything of Revelation up to the harvest judgment in chapter 14 right before the vial judgments begin.

Are you basing your belief on the fact that those that are saved are called saints?

1. There are people called saints in the Old Testament.
2. There are people called saints in the Church Age .
3. There are people called saints from the Tribulation.

Remember, the meaning of saint is set aside and that describes each one of these three different time periods.

Here is an interesting observation, the saints of the Church worship God as creator in Chapter 4, in Chapter 5 they worship Him as Redeemer, however we see the Trib saints proclaiming,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters Rev 14:7

Interesting, sounds as if there are the very ones who didn't believe there was a God, that didn't believe in the Creation account and didn't believe in a universal flood....., and that would fit in with them that never heard or understood the Gospel before the Church was Raptured because Jesus tells us if you don't believe what Moses wrote then you won't believe in Jesus or what He has said, ...interesting indeed, guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

[n2thelight]

Correct me if I am mistaken but the scripture this 'fig tree budding' belief about Israel in 1948 is taken from is....
Mat 24:32 `And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: When already its branch may have become tender, and the leaves it may put forth, ye know that summer is nigh,

Luk 21:29 And he spake a simile to them: `See the fig-tree, and all the trees,
Luk 21:30 when they may now cast forth, having seen, of yourselves ye know that now is the summer nigh;

So if the State of Israel, is the fig tree budding, Who are 'all the trees' also mentioned that are budding? Who are the other states, countries, whatever that are budding? We can't just ignore that phrase in the verse and pretend that it is not there.
Deborah13, Yesterday at 2:56 PM


The answer comes from the comparison with the fig tree; it was dried and then sprouted again. Israel was dried for many years and then came back to be a nation. It would appear therefore that Jesus was referring to other nations close to Israel which would also be reborn. What is astounding to discover is that all of the countries that border Israel came back to be independent nation states around the same time as Israel. The CIA World Fact Book discusses how Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt gained their independence all between the years 1943 and 1952 all within five years of the birth of Israel.

Lebanon
Following World War I, France acquired a mandate over the northern portion of the former Ottoman Empire province of Syria. The French separated out the region of Lebanon in 1920, and granted this area independence in 1943.

Jordan
Following World War I and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the UK received a mandate to govern much of the Middle East. Britain separated out a semi-autonomous region of Transjordan from Palestine in the early 1920s, and the area gained its independence in 1946; it adopted the name of Jordan in 1950.

Syria
Following World War I, France acquired a mandate over the northern portion of the former Ottoman Empire province of Syria. The French administered the area as Syria until granting it independence in 1946.

Egypt
Following the completion of the Suez Canal in 1869, Egypt became an important world transportation hub, but also fell heavily into debt. Ostensibly to protect its investments, Britain seized control of Egypt�s government in 1882, but nominal allegiance to the Ottoman Empire continued until 1914. Partially independent from the UK in 1922, Egypt acquired full sovereignty with the overthrow of the British-backed monarchy in 1952, (CIA World Fact Book, emphases mine).[9]

These countries, like Israel, did not exist as independent countries until 1943 and after. They were simply parts of the Ottoman Empire and then parts of the British Empire or a colony of the French. Their birth around the birth of Israel strengthens the significance of 1948.

http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/Articles/DouglasHamp/the-fig-tree-has-budded.htm

 

[Deborah13]

Here is an interesting observation, the saints of the Church worship God as creator in Chapter 4, in Chapter 5 they worship Him as Redeemer, however we see the Trib saints proclaiming,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters Rev 14:7

Interesting, sounds as if there are the very ones who didn't believe there was a God, that didn't believe in the Creation account and didn't believe in a universal flood....., and that would fit in with them that never heard or understood the Gospel before the Church was Raptured because Jesus tells us if you don't believe what Moses wrote then you won't believe in Jesus or what He has said, ...interesting indeed, guess we will just have to wait and see.

Many in the Christian church do not know what Moses and the Prophets said, never mind the secular world. So we know that this statement was made to/about unbelieving Jews, those who received and were taught Torah.

 

[Deborah13]

Correct me if I am mistaken but the scripture this 'fig tree budding' belief about Israel in 1948 is taken from is....
Mat 24:32 `And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: When already its branch may have become tender, and the leaves it may put forth, ye know that summer is nigh,

Luk 21:29 And he spake a simile to them: `See the fig-tree, and all the trees,
Luk 21:30 when they may now cast forth, having seen, of yourselves ye know that now is the summer nigh;

So if the State of Israel, is the fig tree budding, Who are 'all the trees' also mentioned that are budding? Who are the other states, countries, whatever that are budding? We can't just ignore that phrase in the verse and pretend that it is not there.
Deborah13, Yesterday at 2:56 PM


The answer comes from the comparison with the fig tree; it was dried and then sprouted again. Israel was dried for many years and then came back to be a nation. It would appear therefore that Jesus was referring to other nations close to Israel which would also be reborn. What is astounding to discover is that all of the countries that border Israel came back to be independent nation states around the same time as Israel. The CIA World Fact Book discusses how Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt gained their independence all between the years 1943 and 1952 all within five years of the birth of Israel.

Lebanon
Following World War I, France acquired a mandate over the northern portion of the former Ottoman Empire province of Syria. The French separated out the region of Lebanon in 1920, and granted this area independence in 1943.

Jordan
Following World War I and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the UK received a mandate to govern much of the Middle East. Britain separated out a semi-autonomous region of Transjordan from Palestine in the early 1920s, and the area gained its independence in 1946; it adopted the name of Jordan in 1950.

Syria
Following World War I, France acquired a mandate over the northern portion of the former Ottoman Empire province of Syria. The French administered the area as Syria until granting it independence in 1946.

Egypt
Following the completion of the Suez Canal in 1869, Egypt became an important world transportation hub, but also fell heavily into debt. Ostensibly to protect its investments, Britain seized control of Egypt�s government in 1882, but nominal allegiance to the Ottoman Empire continued until 1914. Partially independent from the UK in 1922, Egypt acquired full sovereignty with the overthrow of the British-backed monarchy in 1952, (CIA World Fact Book, emphases mine).[9]

These countries, like Israel, did not exist as independent countries until 1943 and after. They were simply parts of the Ottoman Empire and then parts of the British Empire or a colony of the French. Their birth around the birth of Israel strengthens the significance of 1948.

http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/Articles/DouglasHamp/the-fig-tree-has-budded.htm

Thank you for your response. I have asked this question several times and no one has ever attempted to answer it. What you have pointed out is certainly a very good answer.
If I were a futurist I would probably consider this to be the answer. I had never thought of it.

 

[Karl]

Many in the Christian church do not know what Moses and the Prophets said, never mind the secular world. So we know that this statement was made to/about unbelieving Jews, those who received and were taught Torah.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Rev 14:6
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev 14:7

So then, if I understand you correctly, the "Jews, God's particular chosen people" saved during the Trib are not only the descendents of Shem, but also of Japheth and Ham?

 

[Deborah13]

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Rev 14:6
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev 14:7

So then, if I understand you correctly, the "Jews, God's particular chosen people" saved during the Trib are not only the descendents of Shem, but also of Japheth and Ham?

You are definitely Not understanding me correctly.

 

[Malachi]

The doctrine of futurism came out of the counter reformation for the sole purpose of post dating the time of antichrist..tob

TOB,

Christians do not have to turn to Counter Reformation teachings to establish futurism. A proper study of Bible prophecies (OT and NT) will lead to that belief, provided we do not approach Scripture with preconceived ideas, or heavily influenced by commentators from the past, or certain denominational positions.

While Franciso Ribera did whatever he did, no one needs to go to his writings. The history of the world itself is clear proof that the Millenium is yet future. The problems began with Augustine's interpretation of prophecies, which were not challenged by the Reformers. Augustine believed he lived in the Millenium: "Therefore, the Church even now is the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of heaven. Accordingly, even now His saints reign with Him..." (City of God, XX, 9).

With all due respect, that was quite incorrect, as we look back at human history. The worst is yet to come, before the Lord Jesus Christ puts everything in order for eternity.

 

[Sinthesis]

TOB,

Christians do not have to turn to Counter Reformation teachings to establish futurism. A proper study of Bible prophecies (OT and NT) will lead to that belief, provided we do not approach Scripture with preconceived ideas, or heavily influenced by commentators from the past, or certain denominational positions.

This statement can justify anything!

Christians do not have to turn to --insert appropriate source-- teachings to establish --insert chosen eschatology--. A proper study of Bible prophecies (OT and NT) will lead to that belief, provided we do not approach Scripture with preconceived ideas, or heavily influenced by commentators from the past, or certain denominational positions.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sometimes the simple answer is the best answer, I agree with you that is what a Christian believes.


I agree, I don't see a loss of salvation either. Thanks, Brother Eugene.

Your list of what a Christian needs, I agree with. Thank you for this thought.

My question was what does a Christian need to Do?
If one is a Christian then they are ready. It's not like one needs to be watching for the bus to come or they might miss it.

OOPS, my bad, LOL. I misunderstood your question.

What does a Christian need to do,

Simple answer, we need to be about our Fathers business in taking His word out into the world and show the love and light of Christ to others by helping those in need.

 

[turnorburn]

TOB,

Christians do not have to turn to Counter Reformation teachings to establish futurism. A proper study of Bible prophecies (OT and NT) will lead to that belief, provided we do not approach Scripture with preconceived ideas, or heavily influenced by commentators from the past, or certain denominational positions.

While Franciso Ribera did whatever he did, no one needs to go to his writings. The history of the world itself is clear proof that the Millenium is yet future. The problems began with Augustine's interpretation of prophecies, which were not challenged by the Reformers. Augustine believed he lived in the Millenium: "Therefore, the Church even now is the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of heaven. Accordingly, even now His saints reign with Him..." (City of God, XX, 9).

With all due respect, that was quite incorrect, as we look back at human history. The worst is yet to come, before the Lord Jesus Christ puts everything in order for eternity.

Why was there a counter reformation?

tob

 

[Malachi]

Why was there a counter reformation? tob

Good question. The Reformation was a movement of the Holy Spirit to bring Christians back to the true Gospel and true Bible doctrine. This was an opportunity for the Roman Catholic Church to repent and divest itself of all its false teachings and practices. However, instead of repenting, the church of Rome and its minions hardened their hearts, persecuted and killed the saints, and resolved to overthrow the Reformation with a "Counter Reformation". The Jesuits were commissioned to the attack.

This was simply a hardening of their false position, and it resulted in the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent basically was an attack on the truths of God's Word and a reiteration of the lies of Rome. Evangelical Christians today should read the proceedings of the Council of Trent to see why they should not join hands with Rome.

Perhaps this post may be moved to the Catholic thread, but your question needed an answer here.

 

[turnorburn]

Your quite correct in one aspect but there is another reason that we've forgotten. It doesn't need to be moved this is our history, there is one monumental reason for the reformation that the devil prefers to hide..

tob

 

[jasonc]

Thank you for your response. I have asked this question several times and no one has ever attempted to answer it. What you have pointed out is certainly a very good answer.
If I were a futurist I would probably consider this to be the answer. I had never thought of it.

Lebanon wasn't a nation that was the nation called Phoenicia, the land that is Jordan was called edom, moab and other names after the fall of rome and before the rise of rome.Egypt was a nation that was around after ad 70 and a provence of rome. they were under empires. they were under the ptolemic dynasty then the roman empire and then ottoman if I recall., Syria the same. but the Syrians don't speak Aramaic therefor they aren't the same people and the Egyptians cant be counted either as those are a mixed lot. ancient Egyptian is called copt and only the Coptic Christian use that for church and they use Arabic for all other usage

 

[for_his_glory]

Karl,

I use saints as all who are and have been in Gods will and those who have accepted His son Jesus as Lord and Savior by the washing of the blood in Spiritual regeneration.

I believe in a Rapture being that we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds, but not before some 7 year Great Tribulation that is not found in scripture as the Church (we) are here until the harvest judgement of Rev 14 and at the 7th trumpet call we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds before the vial judgements begin.

I do not believe in one great Antichrist or a seven year peace treaty as neither are mentioned in scripture, but many have taken the he in Daniel 9:27 to be this so called Antichrist, but this is what it says. The he in Daniel 9:27 is Jesus, not antichrist, who makes firm the covenant with many for one week (seven prophetic years). The word many refers to the Abrahamic covenant people of Israel, Genesis 12:1-3 and the true believers of Jesus as what he speaks in Matthew 26:28. We are now under the new covenant of grace that is confirmed by the life and death of Jesus that he has caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease as he fulfilled this on the cross with his last words, "It is finished".

In Jesus Olivet prophecy in Matthew 24 he gave signs of the end for not only the disciples to look out for, but for all of us to see the signs that lead to the return of Christ, but never mentions anything of a seven year peace treaty between an Antichrist or anyone. Jesus does mention both of the events Gabriel spoke to Daniel in Dan 9:27 with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, Matthew 24:2, and the abomination of desolation down further in vs. 15.

 

[jasonc]

Karl,

I use saints as all who are and have been in Gods will and those who have accepted His son Jesus as Lord and Savior by the washing of the blood in Spiritual regeneration.

I believe in a Rapture being that we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds, but not before some 7 year Great Tribulation that is not found in scripture as the Church (we) are here until the harvest judgement of Rev 14 and at the 7th trumpet call we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds before the vial judgements begin.

I do not believe in one great Antichrist or a seven year peace treaty as neither are mentioned in scripture, but many have taken the he in Daniel 9:27 to be this so called Antichrist, but this is what it says. The he in Daniel 9:27 is Jesus, not antichrist, who makes firm the covenant with many for one week (seven prophetic years). The word many refers to the Abrahamic covenant people of Israel, Genesis 12:1-3 and the true believers of Jesus as what he speaks in Matthew 26:28. We are now under the new covenant of grace that is confirmed by the life and death of Jesus that he has caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease as he fulfilled this on the cross with his last words, "It is finished".

In Jesus Olivet prophecy in Matthew 24 he gave signs of the end for not only the disciples to look out for, but for all of us to see the signs that lead to the return of Christ, but never mentions anything of a seven year peace treaty between an Antichrist or anyone. Jesus does mention both of the events Gabriel spoke to Daniel in Dan 9:27 with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, Matthew 24:2, and the abomination of desolation down further in vs. 15.

ok this is close to what I believe. now this site is whacky, this post was before mine and now is after.i wanted to quote it but I couldnt

 

[reba]

Why was there a counter reformation?

tob

A guess would be the same reason there was the reformation... People mess up...

Look at what became of the Azusa Street out pouring... folks barking like dogs...

 

[for_his_glory]

ok this is close to what I believe. now this site is whacky, this post was before mine and now is after.i wanted to quote it but I couldnt

probably because i deleted it and made a few changes and then reposted it. It's all good

 

[Kathi]

Your quite correct in one aspect but there is another reason that we've forgotten. It doesn't need to be moved this is our history, there is one monumental reason for the reformation that the devil prefers to hide..

tob

I agree.