Lying

[stovebolts]

God was commenting on Sarah's thoughts, He wasn't answering a request. I suppose if Abraham had asked, God would've been honest with him.
.

What if you address the scripture at face value?

Have a good evening.

 

[Roro1972]

he still had to if Abraham said this is sarai my wife, what would have happened? something else and god would have protected them from the Egyptians and philistines.

so you are saying that god didn't think he would marry her? odd if there wasn't any plan to if Abraham was honest. if I didn't know some attractive woman was a mans wife and sister and did the same and sinned. how would I ever know if she didn't tell me or Abraham. if I did marry her and she then said I have Abraham for a husband. whom would go kill? not her. Abraham? thus my point, even if its off whether they sinned. they perceived her as a free lady, no thanks to that sorry man at the time.

quote [ so you are saying that god didn't think he would marry her?]

What I am saying is

In Gen 12: 1-4 God made a covenant with Abram. From this point Abram new if he listened to God ( and do what God says )
( v3 ) things would be good for him and his wife ( Sarai )

Gen 12
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

quote [odd if there wasn't any plan to if Abraham was honest] here is the plan you are missing

When Abram began to enter Egypt; Abram said to his wife ( Sarai ) verse 11 and 12.
Gen 12:
11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.

It should be plain why he did not tell them she was his wife, Pharoah Would Kill Him and Take Abrams Wife For His Wife.
So this is the reason he did not say "she is my wife" ( verse 11-12 ) and he told the truth when he said " she is my sister"
God an Abram had a relationship Abram new God would protect/help Abram and his wife Sarai.
Faith in God would help Abram/

 

[reba]

I hope you don't think I'm sowing discord. I don't see anyone else sowing discord at the moment either.

To be honest, yes I've been having fun. But only to spur thinking from the heart that our eyes would be opened to the great mercies of our Lord.

Not at all Stovebolts...

But only to spur thinking from the heart that our eyes would be opened to the great mercies of our Lord.

Exactly my post also...

 

[Gary]

What if you address the scripture at face value?

Have a good evening.

Genesis 18
9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” So he said, “Here, in the tent.”
10 And He said, “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son.” (Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.)
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”
13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’



I see nothing in this passage that would lead anyone to assume God was being deceitful.

To make a case that God was being dishonest, one would have to show that Abraham expected God to share the entire contents of Sarah's thoughts. Abraham had no expectations.


That's what I see at face value.
.

 

[smaller]

Has anyone here yet mentioned God sending a lying spirit to prophets?

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
[just saw Jason picked it up by general reference on the last page]

 

[Edward]

war is seldom black and white.
did you know that this nation asked the mafia in new York to patrol the shores of the manhattan island? why because they had the arms and the boats to patrol. for the cost of all prior crimes we know about. they disappear. sometimes the greater evil must be dealt with first. I don't like that but that is the world we live in. I don't live in a bubble.

I can agree with that brother. The greater evil. That says a mouthful.
The feds really asked the mob to do duty on the shores of NY?! I didn't know that. That strikes me as a very wise decision. Not that I'm pro mob or gangsterism, but those guys are for real and serious. Pros.

 

[Edward]

oh, I wont go there but well I know that and its importance to be asked.

you can also go into the lying spirit in the book of the kings where god basically said whom shall lie for me.

God said that? Well, that would be under authority then and not a sin. What passage if I may ask?

 

[Edward]

Nothing
This isn't about Gods honesty. Its about Abraham's relationship with his wife.

If you hold to a strict reading of the text, Sarah said nothing. She thought these things, but she did not say them.

You said if we hold back from the whole truth, that's deception. Why didn't God tell Abraham that Sarah thought he (Abraham) was too old to have children? Wouldn't that be deceptive?

Thoughts?

No brother. That is not deceptive. That's more along the lines of...one leading the conversation, thus provoking the other to think...like a teacher or something. Don't just blurt out all the answers but try to develop a line of thought in the student, critical thinking and so forth. See what I mean?

 

[Edward]

Has anyone here yet mentioned God sending a lying spirit to prophets?

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
[just saw Jason picked it up by general reference on the last page]

Oh, that's what it was. Thanks brother, I was curious about that.

 

[stovebolts]

Genesis 18
9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” So he said, “Here, in the tent.”
10 And He said, “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son.” (Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.)
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”
13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’



I see nothing in this passage that would lead anyone to assume God was being deceitful.

To make a case that God was being dishonest, one would have to show that Abraham expected God to share the entire contents of Sarah's thoughts. Abraham had no expectations.


That's what I see at face value.
.

That contradicts what you stared earlier. You said if part of the story is purposely withheld, then that's deciet. Clearly, God withholds Sarah's thoughts about Abraham being too old.

Furthermore, God articulates his words through his eyes, not Abraham's. According to the text, Sarah said nothing out loud. You cannot hear my thoughts, but God hears them. When we think of people saying something, it is through the spoken word.

So it is true that Sarah did speak, but only in her mind. But, if you don't know about God, then the text makes God out to be a liar.

In order for us not to view God as a liar, we have to understand that God knows our thoughts and our hearts. This keeps us from stumbling over the text. Its part of discernment.

Back to God withholding Sarah's thoughts to Abraham. Are you saying it was Abraham's duty to interrogate God on the matter? It is clear that God purposely leaves Sarah's remarks out of the conversation. Question is, why?

What good would it serve? It would only cause discontent and hurt feelings. How many years did Abraham try to bear a child? Sarah's womb was sealed because we know Abraham had a son with Hagar. Now Sarah wants to say its Abraham's fault? Imagine the hurt and feeling of insecurity. No, God leaves that part out to preserve the peace. Telling the whole truth would only make the situation worse.

Peace carries a higher value than the whole truth in this situation. In this situation the whole truth works against Gods will.and the purpose he has for Sarah and Abraham.

 

[Gary]

That contradicts what you stared earlier. You said if part of the story is purposely withheld, then that's deciet. Clearly, God withholds Sarah's thoughts about Abraham being too old.

Here is what was actually said. Read it carefully.

If you only provide a part of the truth but claim it is the whole truth, then yes it's lying.

Back to God withholding Sarah's thoughts to Abraham. Are you saying it was Abraham's duty to interrogate God on the matter? It is clear that God purposely leaves Sarah's remarks out of the conversation. Question is, why?

I didn't say it was Abraham's duty to do anything. You're adding values to the conversation that aren't intended to be there.

 

[Gary]

So it is true that Sarah did speak, but only in her mind. But, if you don't know about God, then the text makes God out to be a liar.

Let's assume I know nothing of God. Show me how the text makes God out to be a liar.

In order for us not to view God as a liar, we have to understand that God knows our thoughts and our hearts. This keeps us from stumbling over the text. Its part of discernment.

You mean like this?

1 Samuel 16
7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”



And just for future reference, I've never viewed God as a liar.
.

 

[Edward]

...And just for future reference, I've never viewed God as a liar.
.

That's the best thing we have going for us in this God of ours. No deception. No lies. Absolutely trustworthy and honorable...!!! Wow! Praise the Lord for that!

This world is soo full of deception and lies...it makes it hard to comprehend concepts such as these.

 

[smaller]

That's the best thing we have going for us in this God of ours. No deception. No lies. Absolutely trustworthy and honorable...!!! Wow! Praise the Lord for that!

This world is soo full of deception and lies...it makes it hard to comprehend concepts such as these.

Many point to God not being the Author of confusion. Yet God confused the language of the people at the tower of Babel.

There is an openly displayed principle involved in the text. That God insures a man reaps what he sows. He is not mocked.

Divine Retribution is a real principle. To a liar, they will be bound by retribution from God. And that includes God sending a lying spirit into them. That includes God giving them their delusions.

This field we deal with is not a toy of our own imaginations. And Divine Retribution is part of the reality of engagements with God for believers and unbelievers alike.

 

[stovebolts]

No brother. That is not deceptive. That's more along the lines of...one leading the conversation, thus provoking the other to think...like a teacher or something. Don't just blurt out all the answers but try to develop a line of thought in the student, critical thinking and so forth. See what I mean?

I'm not saying it was deceptive... Hence the ? Gary said in a previous post that intentionally withholding the truth was deceptive.
But I think its a bit more than critical thinking... I think its about not saying things for the sake of peace when whatever you say doesn't better the situation.

 

[Malachi]

Has anyone here yet mentioned God sending a lying spirit to prophets?

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

That incident does not indicate that God condones lying. However, it does indicate that God will send liars to those who prefer lies to the truth. One must read the whole chapter to see this.

Scripture says (Prov 19:5,9) "A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape". This verse is repeated twice in the same chapter for emphasis.

 

[stovebolts]

Let's assume I know nothing of God. Show me how the text makes God out to be a liar.




You mean like this?

1 Samuel 16
7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”



And just for future reference, I've never viewed God as a liar.
.

For the record, I didn't insinuate you viewed him as a liar.

But I see I have struck a nerve with you. Relax, kick your feet up and listen. Most of all, I am not projecting this upon you.

Sarah thinks, God says she spoke.

Thinking thoughts is not speaking.
Speaking comes from the mouth.
Clear?

Sarah did not speak. But God knew her thoughts.

God tells Abraham that Sarah spoke.

God could have picked different words to more accurately describe the situation. But he didn't.

If you think in critical terms, God looks like a liar.

But, we both agree that God knows our thoughts, and to say something in your mind is the same as if you spoke it from your lips.

How do we know this? Because of the totality of scripture.

So, it would be foolish to call God a liar based on those texts.

This should show us that life is more complex than what we see at face value.

What is my point? Black and white thinking puts on a set of blinders and blinds us from the truth. If we put blinders on the passages posted, God could be percieved as a liar.

Discernment is about putting the right values in their proper place. It wasn't a sin when David and his men ate the shewbread which by Gods own law stated that bread was only for the priest. Why? Because the right value was mercy.

 

[Gary]

If you think in critical terms, God looks like a liar.

I must not think in "critical terms" because I've never looked upon God as a liar.

What is my point? Black and white thinking puts on a set of blinders and blinds us from the truth. If we put blinders on the passages posted, God could be percieved as a liar.

Lying is a sin. There's no grey area where this is concerned. None. There's nothing in the Word of God that gives us permission to lie.

If you can perceive God as a liar in that passage, then you're going beyond what is written.
.

 

[Gary]

I'm not saying it was deceptive... Hence the ? Gary said in a previous post that intentionally withholding the truth was deceptive.
But I think its a bit more than critical thinking... I think its about not saying things for the sake of peace when whatever you say doesn't better the situation.

It's also deceptive to make it appear as if that was all I said.
.

 

[Malachi]

What is my point? Black and white thinking puts on a set of blinders and blinds us from the truth. If we put blinders on the passages posted, God could be percieved as a liar.

Your argument falls flat when we note in Scripture that God views our thoughts as our speech, for "out of the heart the mouth speaketh" (Lk 6:45). So for God (because of who He is) Sarah's thoughts and speech were identical.

As for your contention that Christians must not think in "black and white terms", that is a purely humanistic idea, since in Scripture there are no "grey areas" when it comes to sin. Sin is sin. Lying is a sin. Men may lie for good reasons, and God may forgive the sin of their lies. But He will not categorize lies as truth, since He Himself is Truth.

To even suggest that "God could be perceived as a liar" is to suggest blasphemy.