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Of course the covenant with Abraham was for Abraham's descendants. I know you don't listen very well, but let's try this. The Mosaic covenant was added as an additional covenant for the people of God. The law of Moses was not added into the Abrahamic covenant so as to change the Abrahamic covenant. Paul points out that everyone knows you can't do that with a covenant already established.
The law was added to something that was exclusive to Abraham's descendants.
That something that the law was added to, was being transgressed.
That something that the law of Moses was added to was not annulled...
That something that the law of Moses was added to was the original Covenant that the Lord Almighty made with Abraham.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:17-19
The law of Moses was not added into the Abrahamic covenant so as to change the Abrahamic covenant. Paul points out that everyone knows you can't do that with a covenant already established.
The scripture does not mention "change the covenant", it says the law that was added 430 years later can not annul the covenant.
By saying ...the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant, it is a direct connection to the Abrahamic Covenant... the "covenant" being the Abrahamic Covenant.
I don't know why brothers and sisters debate so much about the law and faith and if it is fulfilled or are we subject to it and so forth. I always figured that, Jesus did fulfill the law, so we are not under the law, but at the same time, we're now born again and one with Christ...so at this point we would naturally keep the Law for ourselves. That bit about not being under the law is sort of administration thing for the Holy Spirit (?) to perhaps lead us down a certain path for Gods purposes and that alone. It doesn't mean that we toss out the law and not regard it at all on the Jesus fulfilled it loophole, lol.
Here's your scripture Brothers and Sisters:
Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law./
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:27-31
The Orthodox Jewish Bible says it this way -
31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah and make it invalid through emunah? Chas v’shalom! Aderaba (to the contrary), we uphold the Torah.
Strong's Number: 2476 - Uphold or Establish
Definition
to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
to bid to stand by, [set up]
in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
to place
to make firm, fix establish
to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
to establish a thing, cause it to stand 1b
to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
to set or place in a balance
to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
to stand
to stand by or near
to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm 2a
of the foundation of a building
to stand
continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared
to be of a steadfast mind
of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver
King James Word Usage - Total: 158
stand 116, set 11, establish 5, stand still 4, stand by 3, miscellaneous 17, vr stand 2
Paul is saying to the Jews who have converted but are reluctant to give up keeping the law of Moses also, by faith we uphold the law.
The law of Moses and the law of faith have the same weight of balance on the scales measure, which is OBEDIENCE.
The law of Moses required for a person who was under the law to do all of the law or be under a curse.
The law of faith says, faith without the work of obedience is dead.
Obedience is the common weight of measure on the scales of righteousness.
That is the meaning of by faith we uphold the law.
The we in verse 31 is a reference to the Jews.
Romans 3 is a contrast of Jew and Gentile, the law and faith.
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. 1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
Please understand that the we in verse 31 is a reference to the Jew, who were obligated to keep the law of Moses, until the Seed should come.
James 4:11-12 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law:but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another.
Genesis 3:4-5
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Romans 7:7-11
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
The knowledge of the Law had opened my eyes to both sin and death, and by it I understood my need for salvation. But sin and death was all that was revealed by the law. When I understood my sin was not failing to live without sin according to the law, but that my sin was eating of the fruit of knowledge which did open my eyes, I repented myself of that sin and I turned from the tree of knowledge. In His mighty mercy I found His Salvation, and I knew his Grace. For He has closed my eyes that were once opened to sin, that I may walk by Faith, following the Spirit of my Beloved.
I am crucified with Christ, so that I am dead with Him, and if I am dead with Him, than am I also alive with Him by the power of His resurrection. Now what happens when a person dies? Do they not close their eyes.
You can trust in the law, or you can trust in Christ.
Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me;
they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil,but to do good they have no knowledge.
Titus 3:4-9 (ESV) and context is worth speaking of again even though you've heard it before:
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Verse 9 does not refer to discussions like whether or not the Sabbath is for New Covenant believers. I believe Paul was referring to arguments concerning how to keep certain laws. The house of Hillel and the house of Shammai were always at odds concerning the minutia in the law, but they both agreed the Sabbath needed to be kept by all Israel. The mystery of iniquity, false teachers, false brethren, false doctrines, etc., have left the Body of Messiah in utter confusion and ignorance. So much so that they can't agree on whether the Sabbath is totally abolished, or moved to Sunday, or still on the 7th day, or kept only in a spiritual way, or kept literally ... And through it all, there stands the fourth commandment among the Ten Words, forever established in the written Word of Yahweh and forever written in the hearts of those who allowed it to be written there.
What was the topic? Selling stuff on Sabbath, right?
Okay, if you guys want to donate to me for the truth that I just delivered? PM me so that I can give you my PayPal addy. You may pay me on a Sabbath day if you wanna. But you don't have to. Feel free to transfer $$ to me because my PayPal account won't reject money. I won't let it. I don't think it can? Who knows. But I would be surprised if it ever did.
But if you don't wanna and if you think it's okay to bind the mouth of the kine who treads the grain? Then pretend that I didn't say this. But know that it was written in the Law of Moses, " "Never muzzle an ox when it is threshing grain. ..."
Ignore at your peril. This too is said in jest, but then you already know this too. The red-letter law quarrels are worthless, don't ask for my donation. I'll muzzly your moutheths, if I could, that is. I can't so no worries on my account.
Verse 9 does not refer to discussions like whether or not the Sabbath is for New Covenant believers. I believe Paul was referring to arguments concerning how to keep certain laws. The house of Hillel and the house of Shammai were always at odds concerning the minutia in the law, but they both agreed the Sabbath needed to be kept by all Israel. The mystery of iniquity, false teachers, false brethren, false doctrines, etc., have left the Body of Messiah in utter confusion and ignorance. So much so that they can't agree on whether the Sabbath is totally abolished, or moved to Sunday, or still on the 7th day, or kept only in a spiritual way, or kept literally ... And through it all, there stands the fourth commandment among the Ten Words, forever established in the written Word of Yahweh and forever written in the hearts of those who allowed it to be written there.
The law of Moses that was added, had different requirements for the natural descendants of Abraham, who were with Moses, when he left Egypt, than was originally given by God in Genesis.
Since the law was made obsolete, [Hebrews 8:13, Colossians 2:16, Ephesians 2:14] those additional requirements for the Sabbath, given in the law of Moses, such as putting to death a person for picking up sticks, are no longer required.
Other than that:
The Sabbath is still the 7th Day.
The Sabbath is still made for man.
The Sabbath is still a day of rest.
Those that teach we must keep the Sabbath, as prescribed by the law of Moses, are not teaching the truth of New Testament doctrine.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17
You know this for a fact? Okay. Why should I try (to convince the unwilling)?
It's so obvious that you already know more than me.
You know this for a fact, right?
WAIT! I thought you knew (for a fact). Now you say you believe[that you know] what Paul was referring to and what he meant...
Have you done a full study on or about arguments over opinions before?
Mr. Google is your friend.
I'm sure you are. I've never doubted your sincerity and I don't think you doubt mine. I'm thankful for YOU too, but that does not mean that we agree on all things.
9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
________________________________________ 1 Cor 10:16-17 (KJV)The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
________________________________________
Is it not possible that they were also speaking about the fable of Jotham, in which the trees are spoken of as choosing a king (Judg. 9:8-15) or maybe that of the cedars of Lebanon and the thistle as Jehoash's answer to Amaziah (2 Kings 14:9)? That's what Easton's Bible Dictionary suggests for that particular passage.
What exactly has left the Body of Christ in confusion? What is it that YOU say? AND are you are certain that endless arguments CAN'Thave that effect?!?
Oh, I see that you've answered that to your satisfaction already.
Is it not possible that they were also speaking about the fable of Jotham, in which the trees are spoken of as choosing a king (Judg. 9:8-15) or maybe that of the cedars of Lebanon and the thistle as Jehoash's answer to Amaziah (2 Kings 14:9)? That's what Easton's Bible Dictionary suggests for that particular passage.
That's not the only thing that causes confusion.
Confusion comes as a warning. Just a hint of stuff to come.
One clear definition of the cause of confusion might be:
The near immediate result of simultaneously entertaining two opposing concepts or ideas without attaching sufficient priority to one over the other.
So then we wonder:
[sparrow thought bubble] . o O (( "I wonder(!) and simply can't imagine what that might portend?" ))
Confusion (as defined) can lead to: The Whirlwind<<-- click it and see
So much so that they can't agree on whether the Sabbath is totally abolished, or moved to Sunday, or still on the 7th day, or kept only in a spiritual way, or kept literally ...
And here comes jocor (and many, many others, please don't think I would leave the other "contributors" (so-called) of this thread out of this. So here also comes the bird-brained Sparrow to "help" - right?
So much so that they can't agree on whether the Sabbath is totally abolished, or moved to Sunday, or still on the 7th day, or kept only in a spiritual way, or kept literally ...
I think we could agree if we were willing. But we'd have to set our propensities aside. We'd have to conquer our flesh and that's what's always there saying, "Go, go, go, go! Ra-ra-ra, shish, koom, ba! Yea! Self!
This is just the Christian version of a selfie pic.
Nothing more.
We love showing off our SPIRITUAL SELFIES, now don't we?
\CLICK/ <---- there's another.
but the whole problem is that we change. Even though we are able to capture our inner selves and put it out for others to see? We are not God and the Scripture about being unchanging, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? That's not about us.
now is it?
That's why we need the Holy Spirit, who knows us even better than we know ourselves to be our TEACHER and our Counselor and our Mighty God and Comforter (and more, our Jointly Fitted together guy too). We need to have things personal. Intimate. Not impersonal and distant. We are changed from glory to GLORY (by Him and Him alone). It's HIS job to draw us by cords of love into all truth. His job. God does not trust this to others. You're too precious a flower of His Garden for that. You are HIS. And He is a Jealous God.
Okay, then all there is left is for you to show your credentials. Right?
You are in reference to my quote of:
9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
________________________________________ 1 Cor 10:16-17 (KJV)The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
________________________________________
Is it not possible that they were also speaking about the fable of Jotham, in which the trees are spoken of as choosing a king (Judg. 9:8-15) or maybe that of the cedars of Lebanon and the thistle as Jehoash's answer to Amaziah (2 Kings 14:9)? That's what Easton's Bible Dictionary suggests for that particular passage.
What exactly has left the Body of Christ in confusion? What is it that YOU say? AND are you are certain that endless arguments CAN'Thave that effect?!?
Oh, I see that you've answered that to your satisfaction already.
As the game show host of 'So You Wanna Be a Millionaire' asks, "Is that your final answer?!?"
Yeah, I've heard that somewhere before...
Is it not possible that they were also speaking about the fable of Jotham, in which the trees are spoken of as choosing a king (Judg. 9:8-15) or maybe that of the cedars of Lebanon and the thistle as Jehoash's answer to Amaziah (2 Kings 14:9)? That's what Easton's Bible Dictionary suggests for that particular passage.
That's not the only thing that causes confusion.
Confusion comes as a warning. Just a hint of stuff to come.
One clear definition of the cause of confusion might be:
The near immediate result of simultaneously entertaining two opposing concepts or ideas without attaching sufficient priority to one over the other.
So then we wonder:
[sparrow thought bubble] . o O (( "I wonder(!) and simply can't imagine what that might portend?" ))
Confusion (as defined) can lead to: The Whirlwind<<-- click it and see
And here comes jocor (and many, many others, please don't think I would leave the other "contributors" (so-called) of this thread out of this. So here also comes the bird-brained Sparrow to "help" - right?
I think we could agree if we were willing. But we'd have to set our propensities aside. We'd have to conquer our flesh and that's what's always there saying, "Go, go, go, go! Ra-ra-ra, shish, koom, ba! Yea! Self!
This is just the Christian version of a selfie pic.
Nothing more.
We love showing off our SPIRITUAL SELFIES, now don't we?
\CLICK/ <---- there's another.
but the whole problem is that we change. Even though we are able to capture our inner selves and put it out for others to see? We are not God and the Scripture about being unchanging, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? That's not about us.
now is it?
That's why we need the Holy Spirit, who knows us even better than we know ourselves to be our TEACHER and our Counselor and our Mighty God and Comforter (and more, our Jointly Fitted together guy too). We need to have things personal. Intimate. Not impersonal and distant. We are changed from glory to GLORY (by Him and Him alone). It's HIS job to draw us by cords of love into all truth. His job. God does not trust this to others. You're too precious a flower of His Garden for that. You are HIS. And He is a Jealous God.
Seriously Sparrowhawke? You needed two long posts to address your disagreement with mine? You could have replied in two sentences by dispensing with the theatrics.
Paul certainly wasn't referring to arguments over whether or not it is OK to commit adultery, was he? Of course not. Was he referring to arguments over whether or not idolatry is OK for New Covenant believers? Of course not. The same is true for all Ten Commandments. Some on this forum are arguing over the very existence of the Sabbath for New Covenant believers.
This is The Lounge. I'm just talking. Don't take it so seriously. This is not about some "disagreement with jocor"
You seem very (overly) critical. Being verbose is just part of who I am. Sorry, but I can not change at your command.
You seem more comfortable with your particular debate style, but I don't conform and don't feel that I must conform to your particular styling. You see? Just letting the conversation flow is my way of not working. It's my way of resting (as in Sabbath keeping). We trust that God does it right when He writes (in our hearts, not our hurts).Yes, we can pray. But that's just talking to God, now isn't it? We are epistles known and read of man (paraphrase). So, eat that bread crumb; it's tasty! And it specifically teaches about the fleshly tablets, not the stone.
I've just seen too many threads degrade. Personality is criticized. Flesh battles arise. Then comes name calling and the pot objects because the tea-kettle said, "you ain't shiny like me."
My way? If I see youse be a sinning? Then I get to ask and God gives life! (Bang!) There you go. You are being carried, or don't-cha know? Not by me though, I'm just talking.
His burden to me is light and it's easy and it's well fitted and even the yoke is hand rubbed and oiled. No room for chaffing and I think that's what He really wants for every member of His Body - to allow His Blood to flow between us freely. Not to have clogged arteries or embolisms threatening to burst. TIA alert. Transient Ischemic Attack. Watch out. Stroke could be next. We need to stop blocking the blood of the Lamb. Each and every one.
You got it.
Just before he said this, he reiterated his famous thesis that no one is justified through the law of Moses:
"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
In anticipation of the argument that no one being able to be justified by the law of Moses means the law of Moses no longer is upheld Paul forcefully exclaims that faith does not void the law as to cast it down, but rather upholds it:
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:28,31 NASB)
Which is exactly the argument being leveled in this thread, that no longer being under the law as a way to be justified means the law has been cast down and is not upheld by this new way of faith to be justified. "May it never be! On the contrary...", he says. Yep, right there in the pages of our Bibles, right under our noses.
What I'm saying, is just exactly what I said, the scripture you posted,Romans 13:8-10 NASB, does not mention faith in Christ.
The word faith is not mentioned and the word Christ is not mentioned, in Romans 13:8-10
"(L)ove one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. "
(Romans 13:8-10 NASB)
It's funny to me that so many people in the church feel the need to stress not trying to be justified before God through keeping laws. Out of the countless Christians I've met and conversed with in all my years as a Christian I've only met perhaps two that believed a person is justified by doing certain commands given by God (jocor is NOT one of them).
The exact opposite problem is what grips the church these days--the belief that dead faith, the faith the demons have, is the faith that can save them. Few in the church have the spiritual insight to even see the magnitude of this problem in the church today, let alone be able to stress the danger of such a belief.
So I don't know why it's necessary, except for a very tiny fraction of the church, that so many Christians rail against an almost completely defeated belief that keeping various commands of God is how one is justified (made righteous) in God's sight and, therefore, eligible for salvation.
Paul certainly wasn't referring to arguments over whether or not it is OK to commit adultery, was he? Of course not. Was he referring to arguments over whether or not idolatry is OK for New Covenant believers? Of course not.
I agree. Considering the length to which Paul and others talk about the law, and fulfilling it, not casting it down, I can't see the verse meaning we are not to examine and discuss the law, even to the point of quarreling, period, because that would be "unprofitable and worthless".
I think it imperative that we know for ourselves how we fulfill the law. Not so we can be justified that way, but so we can "learn what is pleasing to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:10 NASB), and so we won't be "foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is" (Ephesians 5:17 NASB), and "so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:4 NASB).
Few in the church have the spiritual insight to even see the magnitude of this problem in the church today, let alone be able to stress the danger of such a belief.
Why do you only seek to see the magnitude of the problem in the church so you can warn them of the danger of such a belief?
Why do you not seek it within your heart to find a way to deliver them from such a dangerous belief?
For the Lord I know, my beloved, HE IS MY SALVATION, and HE is your salvation too. HIS GOSPEL AND HIS WORD UNTO US IS THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION.
Do you follow after your Lord and Savior to know the salvation of the Lord among the brethren? Or do you stand against the doctrines that they cling too because the are dangerous? After all, they are the doctrines that have brought them thus far, though they are still wandering in the wilderness, waiting for the time to enter the promised land. The time is now. So what is in your heart? Do you follow after Christ and the salvation of G-d? Or will you stand the accuser of their doctrines? For if the Lord, The G-d of Israel did give over His people which were called after His name to go and worship the host of heaven, then who am I to stand in judgement of the doctrines that they hold to? I am not interested in the doctrines of men that I might warn them of the dangers that might take them by surprise as they wander through the wilderness. I seek something more, and something far greater, and that would be the song of salvation upon my lips. If only you might look upon the idolatry that is your stumbling block, you might know His salvation too.
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Okay, if you guys want to donate to me for the truth that I just delivered? PM me so that I can give you my PayPal addy. You may pay me on a Sabbath day if you wanna. But you don't have to. Feel free to transfer $$ to me because my PayPal account won't reject money. I won't let it. I don't think it can? Who knows. But I would be surprised if it ever did.
now is it? 
