Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[eddif]

Matt 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
1 Corin 12
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
These are not mutually exclusive, the first in Matt; Jesus spoke in person the second is the teaching of Jesus.

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

Now I am not smart enough to do singular exclusive discussions. And . In this case, it may even be dual exclusive. ??

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

And thank God for it.
It's good that false doctrine is segregated and isolated from the truth these days. And in case you think that fragmentation is such a terrible thing and should be put to an end...

"14“Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind." (Matthew 15:14 NASB)

Really? And where did you earn your graduate degree in theology?

.

...and so goes Christianity right down the toilet.

Thank you for expressing your opinion.

Being born of water is not being born of Spirit. One is born again in baptism because in baptism one is united with Christ in His death and raised to new life.

Being born of the spirit is when one receives or is baptized in the Holy Spirit.

They are two separate acts of God. But that's just what that Bible thingy says as I have demonstrated multiple times, apparently, to no avail.

What I'm defending is the measure of wisdom and knowledge of the chap sitting right next to you.

Yes. That's the chap to whom I was referring. Someone untrained in theology other than what he gleaned fromhis brief stint in Sunday School, whatever his favorite TV preacher tells him and firmly based in his 4th grade reading level (average in USA) with which he attempts to commit exegesis upon his KJV. You are defending the wisdom and knowledge of the cell phone salesman who wants to teach theology. I got that.

And yet aren't you the one who said to not read the KJV Bible because our language has changed?

That was my suggestion. I suggested that people read it in a language they speak and understand. (So, I don't think that Russians and Brazilians and Zulus and Hindus should all be encouraged to use the KJV as their primary source of scripture either.) That's why Sts. Cyril and Methodius translated their Greek scriptures into Old Slavonic in the late 900s and created the Cyrillic alphabet thereby giving the Slaves their own written language. It's what the missionary Tyndale Bible Translators do today and it's what Zondervan did with the NIV for the average American.

And of course this means if I submit to your doctrine and your sect, then all will be well (the hypocrisy here is overwhelming).

I have no doctrine of my own. I have no sect of my own.
I submit to the teachings which the undivided Church has held from the beginning until the division of the Church in the 11th century..

All believers are one by the Holy Spirit. [/QUOTE]

Then why do they preach hatred for one another? I have heard preaching in multiple "believing" churches and by TV ministers which promoted hatred against the RCC. Baptist dispensationalists revile Pentecostals and vice versa. Are you sure that's the HOLY Spirit uniting those alleged "brothers"? It seems to me that they just might be of a different spirit since they teach their Christian devotees to hate one another in spite of Jesus' command that we love one another. (John 13:34)

That is in direct rebellion against the will and command of God.

Jhn 17:22-23 (NIV) I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

By the promotion of animosity and even open hatred between the denominations, the world might well conclude that the Father did NOT send the Son and that He does NOT love mankind. And, as a Christian, you support that!!!

Doctrinal differences will not be resolved until we enter the kingdom. No single believer, or church has pegged the complete and total truth.

Doctrinal differences, from the earliest records of the church, arose and continue to do so, from spirits of rebellion and arrogance. IMHO

If you think that "doctrinal differences" are not a problem then can I assume that you approve of "married", openly homosexual bishops? Unitarianism? "Jesus only"? After all, they're just "doctrinal differences? What makes the modern "doctrinal differences", such as your too commonly held redefinition of being "born again" differ from the heresies of Arius or Nestorius et. al.?

We will all be learning until the day we die.

And thank God for it.

It is not God whom you may thank for the sorry state of division of His Church. He stated that no house divided against itself can stand. Who do you imagine would seek an advantage by dividing God's house? Yet you imagine it is a good thing!

It's good that false doctrine is segregated and isolated from the truth these days. And in case you think that fragmentation is such a terrible thing and should be put to an end...

"14“Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind." (Matthew 15:14 NASB)

So you make and staunchly defend the points that your "sound doctrine" is the actually product of blind guides and that dividing God's house into 50,000 separate factions is a good thing.

Pardon me if your position suggests to me the prattle of a madman.

But then, what do I know?

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost and 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
These are not mutually exclusive, the first in Matt; Jesus spoke in person the second is the teaching of Jesus.

No, they are not mutually exclusive. Being joined with Christ in His death and resurrection to new life in baptism and being filled or baptized with/in the Holy Spirit are both acts of God.

iakov the fool

 

[grams]

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[grams]

But Now!

 

[grams]

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

Now I am not smart enough to do singular exclusive discussions. And . In this case, it may even be dual exclusive. ??

eddif

Hi eddif, The book of Hebrews was written to the Jew specifically. These who are written to were Jews who believed the Gospel of God in Jesus The Christ. All of the Scripture references in Hebrews are from the OT Torah, and the prophets in which the Jew had lived under all their lifetime. So when the Jew had sinned, he would revert back to the OT animal sacrifice. Paul explains to them that Christ has already paid the price for our sins up on the cross,(an eternal sacrifice) and the only high priest eternal. By them wanting to sacrifice an animal sacrifice was putting Christ back upon the cross again. But by faith in the eternal sacrifice of Christ, they (along with the Gentile) were saved to the uttermost by faith in Christ. For it is impossible for a saved man to put Christ to shame upon the cross again by renewing the sacrifice on the cross every time they had felt they have sinned. It simply cannot be done. So let us go on from me having to go over this time and time again of the principles of salvation in Christ and formalities to (by faith) in what you have already received (if you have received it). For without fruit, even a tree that has been watered sufficiently, if it only produces thorns is only fit for destruction. But we are persuaded that better thing will come from you by you faith in Christ concerning your salvation. Amen!

 

[eddif]

Hi eddif, The book of Hebrews was written to the Jew specifically. These who are written to were Jews who believed the Gospel of God in Jesus The Christ. All of the Scripture references in Hebrews are from the OT Torah, and the prophets in which the Jew had lived under all their lifetime. So when the Jew had sinned, he would revert back to the OT animal sacrifice. Paul explains to them that Christ has already paid the price for our sins up on the cross,(an eternal sacrifice) and the only high priest eternal. By them wanting to sacrifice an animal sacrifice was putting Christ back upon the cross again. But by faith in the eternal sacrifice of Christ, they (along with the Gentile) were saved to the uttermost by faith in Christ. For it is impossible for a saved man to put Christ to shame upon the cross again by renewing the sacrifice on the cross every time they had felt they have sinned. It simply cannot be done. So let us go on from me having to go over this time and time again of the principles of salvation in Christ and formalities to (by faith) in what you have already received (if you have received it). For without fruit, even a tree that has been watered sufficiently, if it only produces thorns is only fit for destruction. But we are persuaded that better thing will come from you by you faith in Christ concerning your salvation. Amen!

The Jew and Gentile are saved the same way. The OT / OC saints had the gospel preached to them in Abrahams Bosom. The Gentiles have the same gospel when Jew and gentile become one new man.

The Gentiles need to read the letter to the Jewish people. Why? Because, Jews are trying to insist that Gentiles need to be circumsied and keep the law of Moses. Slick talking Jews today try to lead church members into the law, Jesus is our first fruit from the grave etc.

eddif

 

[Roro1972]

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

Now I am not smart enough to do singular exclusive discussions. And . In this case, it may even be dual exclusive. ??

eddif

all I said it both are in the Bible and both must be believed; one can not believe in just one of them. you have a choice to believe both or not.

 

[eddif]

all I said it both are in the Bible and both must be believed; one can not believe in just one of them. you have a choice to believe both or not.

My comment was based on the three baptismal aspects in the scripture you posted. I will not push the issue.

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You don't seem to have anything to say to the multitude of us Protestants who don't think baptism justifies, but who think it should be done anyway. What do you say to them? Don't talk about how it doesn't justify. We know that. Explain why we don't need to obey Christ's command to baptize the nations.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

Now I am not smart enough to do singular exclusive discussions. And . In this case, it may even be dual exclusive. ??

eddif

Hi eddif, The book of Hebrews was written to the Jew specifically. These who are written to were Jews who believed the Gospel of God in Jesus The Christ. All of the Scripture references in Hebrews are from the OT Torah, and the prophets in which the Jew had lived under all their lifetime. So when the Jew had sinned, he would revert back to the OT animal sacrifice. Paul explains to them that Christ has already paid the price for our sins up on the cross,(an eternal sacrifice) and the only high priest eternal. By them wanting to sacrifice an animal sacrifice was putting Christ back upon the cross again. But by faith in the eternal sacrifice of Christ, they (along with the Gentile) were saved to the uttermost by faith in Christ. For it is impossible for a saved man to put Christ to shame upon the cross again by renewing the sacrifice on the cross every time they had felt they have sinned. It simply cannot be done. So let us go on from me having to go over this time and time again of the principles of salvation in Christ and formalities to (by faith) in what you have already received (if you have received it). For without fruit, even a tree that has been watered sufficiently, if it only produces thorns is only fit for destruction. But we are persuaded that better thing will come from you by you faith in Christ concerning your salvation. Amen!

The Jew and Gentile are saved the same way. The OT / OC saints had the gospel preached to them in Abrahams Bosom. The Gentiles have the same gospel when Jew and gentile become one new man.

The Gentiles need to read the letter to the Jewish people. Why? Because, Jews are trying to insist that Gentiles need to be circumsied and keep the law of Moses. Slick talking Jews today try to lead church members into the law, Jesus is our first fruit from the grave etc.

eddif

Nevertheless, Hebrews was written to the Jewish believers who had trouble leaving the OT laws of the priesthood. They were trying to worship both the laws of the OT priesthood and Christ. He is saying to them, if that were possible, you would be nailing Christ again to the shame of the cross, and that is not possible once a man is saved and sins........ to hang Christ on the cross again for repentance. You are either changed by the death of Christ to a new man after the nature of Christ, or if after you have heard the truth and seen the power of Christ work in those who were regenerated, but you yourself have no change, You will be rejected as a fruit tree that bears briers. But we believe that you have not gone there, and will receive the better things that follow salvation. The Jew had the OT laws to overcome in which they practiced all their lives. The Gentile did not. Most of Hebrews is about the Arronic priesthood compared to the priesthood of Christ which is better than the Arronic Priesthood'. If you will Study Hebrew with that in mind, you will have a better understanding of why it was written. The theme of Hebrews is that "Christ is Better" than the Levitical priesthood.

 

[Jim Parker]

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

186,000 miles per second

 

[grams]

Gal: 3
23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster


Rom.115
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Eph:2


7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Col: 2
8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gal: 3
23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster


Rom.115
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Eph:2


7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Col: 2
8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances

Two problems:
1) Baptism is not a Mosaic law.
2) It was not done as a way to be justified by works.
Since it is neither of these, it can not be argued that it can and must be laid aside because Christ came to redeem us from the law, and from the misguided thinking that justification comes through the law. Neither of these reasons Christ came applies to water baptism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Really? And where did you earn your graduate degree in theology?

.

Thank you for expressing your opinion.

Being born of water is not being born of Spirit. One is born again in baptism because in baptism one is united with Christ in His death and raised to new life.

Being born of the spirit is when one receives or is baptized in the Holy Spirit.

They are two separate acts of God. But that's just what that Bible thingy says as I have demonstrated multiple times, apparently, to no avail.



Yes. That's the chap to whom I was referring. Someone untrained in theology other than what he gleaned fromhis brief stint in Sunday School, whatever his favorite TV preacher tells him and firmly based in his 4th grade reading level (average in USA) with which he attempts to commit exegesis upon his KJV. You are defending the wisdom and knowledge of the cell phone salesman who wants to teach theology. I got that.



That was my suggestion. I suggested that people read it in a language they speak and understand. (So, I don't think that Russians and Brazilians and Zulus and Hindus should all be encouraged to use the KJV as their primary source of scripture either.) That's why Sts. Cyril and Methodius translated their Greek scriptures into Old Slavonic in the late 900s and created the Cyrillic alphabet thereby giving the Slaves their own written language. It's what the missionary Tyndale Bible Translators do today and it's what Zondervan did with the NIV for the average American.



I have no doctrine of my own. I have no sect of my own.
I submit to the teachings which the undivided Church has held from the beginning until the division of the Church in the 11th century..

I admit I'm enjoying the banter, so I'll keep the flow going as I have time.

You do realize you are no different than the rest of us, don't you? You don't agree fully with the denomination you identify with, preferring your own interpretation on various things, whether they be inspired by others thoughts or your own. Welcome to the club.

 

[grams]

10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


The bible is the truth and we are complete in HIM !

What do you not understand in that paragraph ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


The bible is the truth and we are complete in HIM !

What do you not understand in that paragraph ?

What do we not understand in that paragraph? That it somehow means we are so complete in him that we don't have to do what he commands.

Since you are 'complete in him', as you surely are if one is born again, does that mean you can not go to church? Not pray? Not read your Bible? Not be generous and helpful and compassionate? Not support ministries with your time, talent, and treasure? Not walk in your gift?

If you did not do those things--because you are 'complete in him'--actually, we may have no choice but to conclude that you really are not 'complete in him', as evidenced by your lack of obedience. Obedience is the evidence of salvation, just as disobedience is evidence of not being saved.

That's what you do not understand in that paragraph.

 

[grams]

What do you not understand in that paragraph ?
Click to expand...
What do we not understand in that paragraph? That it somehow means we are so complete in him that we don't have to do what he commands.

Since you are 'complete in him', as you surely are if one is born again, does that mean you can not go to church? Not pray? Not read your Bible? Not be generous and helpful and compassionate? Not support ministries with your time, talent, and treasure? Not walk in your gift?

If you did not do those things--because you are 'complete in him'--actually, we may have no choice but to conclude that you really are not 'complete in him', as evidenced by your lack of obedience. Obedience is the evidence of salvation, just as disobedience is evidence of not being saved.

That's what you do not understand in that paragraph.

I am complete in Jesus ! I understand , I need not do works............
I need to do good things and try to help others to understand how to be saved...

The Cross was the full payment .........
As long as you can understand this is the time of Grace and we are now all Gentiles..

 

[brother Paul]

Baptism into the Shem (name) of Messiah for the remission of sins is an immersion with and by the Holy Spirit of God into His presence and His authority (the physical water is symbolic but nonetheless essential). We are now identified with Him, and separated unto Him and by Him, as one of His. This imparts not only a new significance (new status) to its recipient in terms of ones relationship with the faith community, but when coupled with genuine faith there is an impartation of a new nature poured forth into the recipient. A new spirit person is born. The Old is as if it is passed away. We are now a new kind of creature after the order of the last Adam, Jesus Christ. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which born of the Spirit is spirit! Hallelujah! We are made into a new creature. We become partakers of the Divine nature He alone can impart (not just symbolically). For the time being, the physical part remains the same, and the soul aspect is still habitually impressed with the habits of the old nature with all of its ways and thoughts. But if you have been born from above, you have become a living spirit again, with a new nature made in His image awakened in you.

So for us, to say “I am saved already because I believe, therefore I do not need to be baptized” is in grave error! God designed that all that He was setting apart (making Holy), even instruments and utensils, should be immersed in the waters. Now if you have confessed Christ go and be baptized…it is indeed essential. Not for the reasonableness of one theological argument versus another, but because God made this to be the way. Your argument is with Him. Any who says “I’m already saved so I won’t be baptized” should examine their faith, for may not be saved and are still children of disobedience.

Jesus said to be baptized in water, commanded us all to baptize...the Apostles ALL practiced it (as well as the deacons)...the earliest church was taught that all must be baptized and they all baptized everyone coming to Christ...and the whole church always did this until shortly after the Reformation...So I believe you have the Holy Spirit and are saved...now if this is true then go and be baptized...God made this a part of the way He consecrates you unto Himself. Do not resist the Holy Spirit within, I know He is speaking to your heart on this and I would find it hard to believe that one person of the Godhead would say to your spirit...do not bother, it is not necessary. Look at Cornelius's household, the Spirit fell on all of them and what was the next thing Peter did? He brought them to the waters..."Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" Imagine if they said NO I don't need it?

Now point two…baptism which is of faith is not a work that saves….it is a work showing we are being saved…only children of faith would bother being baptized. To say “I am saved” and intentionally disobey being saved as God prescribed is “self” will and demonstrates a being who is not submitting to the Spirit and still walking in “doing what is right in THEIR own eyes”…in other words, they are their own god/lord (Genesis 3:5)….therefore if one has come to faith in Christ Jesus they WANT TO BE baptized….