WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study What Happens When We die
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WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
No Sir, you are not wrong. you have explained that with your above statement.
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
Where is your post?
Above is from your post no. 102.
I'm NOT wrong. So you believe in soul sleep.
About which I wrote a whole post saying how it's not accepted Christian theology.
Then you tell me I proved your point, probably with my scriptures.
I only have one glass of wine with dinner.
So it's not that.
Could you take two minutes and explain, please.
Wondering
Malachi
Member
Please see posts #13,38,39 (a few others also).
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
OK, I'll try to stay within the guidelines.
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
Only that, because of I Thes. 4:12-16
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
I did not say that I believe in the soul sleep issue.
Did you read my posts #49, and 68? In the same thread.
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I didn't bring up 1 Thes 4:12
But since YOU did, it just means those that are dead in the body.
Just as "sleep" means in the O.T.
It doesn't mean our spirit and soul are dead, or asleep.
W
I don't know who the above post no. 109 is for, but I read your post no. 49
and it's ambiguous.
Your post no. 68 does affirm that you believe in soul sleep.
But then in post no. 108 you state that you DO NOT believe in soul sleep.
You ARE mysterious.
Wondering
and it's ambiguous.
Your post no. 68 does affirm that you believe in soul sleep.
But then in post no. 108 you state that you DO NOT believe in soul sleep.
You ARE mysterious.
Wondering
According to that scripture it is the very breath/spirit that returns back to God who reserves it until we are resurrected with a new glorified body when Christ returns.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.
Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment.
Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment at the end of time.
Chopper
Member
I have one very close friend that believes in "soul sleep" I believe he is wrong but because I have such a love for him in the Spirit, I don't debate with him. There are several reasons why I believe soul sleep is a false doctrine, is the following thoughts of mine and a few Scriptures.
Along with a thirst to more about the Old Covenant and what Elohim likes and dislikes, I'm an avid student of Revelation. As I study Revelation, it seems that the Apostle John, on the Island of Patmos, didn't believe in soul sleep either. The fact that John mentions in several places the presence of the Elders, such as in....Revelation 5:11 "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"
5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
5:14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped."
The Apostle Paul caught a glimpse of where we go when we die....2Corinthians 12:3 "And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
12:4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."
"Paradise" now that's a familiar word. Lets look at....Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Sure doesn't sound like soul sleep here, right out of Jesus' mouth!
Now, the following is my own opinion. Where do we go when we die? Well, the pat answer has always been Heaven. Heaven?? That's an awfully big place. Lets look at another announcement of Jesus....John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
Ok, so far we know from Jesus that we go to Paradise when we die, the Apostle Paul described it as un-utterable. Apparently, it took his breath away for it's beauty and holiness. Next when we die, we go to our Fathers House which has many rooms. Hmm, I wonder where that is in the great big Heaven?
IMO, I believe it is the New Jerusalem. I believe that the New Jerusalem has always existed as the operations center whereby Elohim, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always been located. They created our world from the New Jerusalem and that is where the Temple not made with hands is, where Jesus sprinkled His own Blood on the Altar once and for all. One day, when this life is over and King Jesus takes us Home, we will live and operate out of the New Jerusalem which will be the Capital City of the New Heaven and New Earth. IMO.
So there ya go, a little Chopperology.
Along with a thirst to more about the Old Covenant and what Elohim likes and dislikes, I'm an avid student of Revelation. As I study Revelation, it seems that the Apostle John, on the Island of Patmos, didn't believe in soul sleep either. The fact that John mentions in several places the presence of the Elders, such as in....Revelation 5:11 "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"
5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
5:14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped."
The Apostle Paul caught a glimpse of where we go when we die....2Corinthians 12:3 "And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
12:4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."
"Paradise" now that's a familiar word. Lets look at....Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Sure doesn't sound like soul sleep here, right out of Jesus' mouth!
Now, the following is my own opinion. Where do we go when we die? Well, the pat answer has always been Heaven. Heaven?? That's an awfully big place. Lets look at another announcement of Jesus....John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
Ok, so far we know from Jesus that we go to Paradise when we die, the Apostle Paul described it as un-utterable. Apparently, it took his breath away for it's beauty and holiness. Next when we die, we go to our Fathers House which has many rooms. Hmm, I wonder where that is in the great big Heaven?
IMO, I believe it is the New Jerusalem. I believe that the New Jerusalem has always existed as the operations center whereby Elohim, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always been located. They created our world from the New Jerusalem and that is where the Temple not made with hands is, where Jesus sprinkled His own Blood on the Altar once and for all. One day, when this life is over and King Jesus takes us Home, we will live and operate out of the New Jerusalem which will be the Capital City of the New Heaven and New Earth. IMO.
So there ya go, a little Chopperology.
Now, the following is my own opinion. Where do we go when we die? Well, the pat answer has always been Heaven. Heaven?? That's an awfully big place. Lets look at another announcement of Jesus....John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
Ok, so far we know from Jesus that we go to Paradise when we die, the Apostle Paul described it as un-utterable. Apparently, it took his breath away for it's beauty and holiness. Next when we die, we go to our Fathers House which has many rooms. Hmm, I wonder where that is in the great big Heaven?
IMO, I believe it is the New Jerusalem. I believe that the New Jerusalem has always existed as the operations center whereby Elohim, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always been located. They created our world from the New Jerusalem and that is where the Temple not made with hands is, where Jesus sprinkled His own Blood on the Altar once and for all. One day, when this life is over and King Jesus takes us Home, we will live and operate out of the New Jerusalem which will be the Capital City of the New Heaven and New Earth. IMO.
So there ya go, a little Chopperology.
Here's some Glory Girl insight for your studies Chopper. A little GloryGirlology
If you start with John 3:13 and then go through Isaiah 65:17-25; 1Corinthians 15:42-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Acts 3:21 and Rev 21:1-5 this shows me that God will destroy the face of this earth as He destroys the nations during the time of the seven trumpets and vial judgments, but will restore or make new again the heaven and earth as He prepares it for the New Jerusalem to be ushered down and those who are caught up to meet Jesus in the air will be brought back with Christ as He fights the final battle and all things will be made new again and then we live in this paradise that is called the New Jerusalem and forevermore be with the Lord. Rev 21:9-27 the angel gives John a description comparing the New Jerusalem that is ushered, emphasis on usher, down to the newly restored earth that will know no more sin.
Chopper
Member
Here's some Glory Girl insight for your studies Chopper. A little GloryGirlology
If you start with John 3:13 and then go through Isaiah 65:17-25; 1Corinthians 15:42-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Acts 3:21 and Rev 21:1-5 this shows me that God will destroy the face of this earth as He destroys the nations during the time of the seven trumpets and vial judgments, but will restore or make new again the heaven and earth as He prepares it for the New Jerusalem to be ushered down and those who are caught up to meet Jesus in the air will be brought back with Christ as He fights the final battle and all things will be made new again and then we live in this paradise that is called the New Jerusalem and forevermore be with the Lord. Rev 21:9-27 the angel gives John a description comparing the New Jerusalem that is ushered, emphasis on usher, down to the newly restored earth that will know no more sin.
Ha, Ha! I really like the GloryGirlology
Thank you for your instruction.
Chopper
Member
In my study of Revelation this morning, I came across this verse....
Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
Lets look at two other references to "Paradise"....
Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
2 Corinthians 12:3 "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
All this is just to reinforce my belief that "Paradise" is not only the place where God resides, so to speak, but is also the New Jerusalem. I wonder if this is the original Garden of Eden. Why? because the "Tree of Life" is there, hmm.
Notice what Genesis 3:3 says....
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
See the similar wording of Genesis 3:3 and Revelation 2:7? They both mention a tree IN THE MIDST. one says Paradise and the other says Garden. I believe that they refer to the same place. What place is that? IN MY FATHERS HOUSE....When we die, we go there!!
Hey, food for thought.
Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
Lets look at two other references to "Paradise"....
Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
2 Corinthians 12:3 "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
All this is just to reinforce my belief that "Paradise" is not only the place where God resides, so to speak, but is also the New Jerusalem. I wonder if this is the original Garden of Eden. Why? because the "Tree of Life" is there, hmm.
Notice what Genesis 3:3 says....
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
See the similar wording of Genesis 3:3 and Revelation 2:7? They both mention a tree IN THE MIDST. one says Paradise and the other says Garden. I believe that they refer to the same place. What place is that? IN MY FATHERS HOUSE....When we die, we go there!!
Hey, food for thought.
Malachi
Member
Why not, just more spectacular.
Luke 23:41-43 I believe the thief knowing he was a sinner and with his physical death approaching finally recognized the need to repent as I would only assume he heard Jesus speak to the multitudes and so did repent before his death so that when Jesus returns he too will be part of the Bride. This is why he asked Jesus to remember him in paradise. Kinda like a death bed confession.
2 Corinthians 12:1-4 Paul says he will come to visions and revelations and did not know if this man was in or out of his body. I believe the meaning is that this man was not actually in heaven (paradise), but in the Spiritual realm right where he sat as seeing a vision of paradise and hearing the Holy Spirit speak to him. I know when I am one on one with the Holy Spirit he speaks to me sometimes with visions and sometimes revelations.
I feel where God is at in the third heaven can be as what Jerusalem was at one time being a place where the presence of God filled the actual Temple. God fills His Temple in Heaven with His Shekinah glory as God is never changing and when Jesus returns and the New Jerusalem (I don't believe it is literal as in a city made with hands) is ushered down to a new purified heaven and earth God will also fill the temple as God and Jesus are the temple made without hands and the brightness of the Shekinah glory means there will be no more darkness of night anymore.
I also feel the New Jerusalem could be the Garden of Eden as scripture is silent on whatever happen to it from the time Adam was evicted, Genesis 3:24, and the Cherubim who God sat at the Eastern gates are probably still guarding the entrance as no one has ever found it nor will they ever.
The Eastern Gate has been sealed off by the Turks since the1500's and has never been opened again. Scripture speaks of Jesus who entered in and out of it while here on earth and will again enter the Eastern Gate, or as it is sometimes called the Golden gate, when He returns to fight the final battle. According to Luke 21:5, 6 Jesus was speaking about God destroying the Temple as there will not be left one stone upon another during the time of Gods great wrath and in Rev 21:9-27 John is given the vision of the New Jerusalem as the temple is God and Jesus and there will need not be any sun as the Shekinah glory will be our light.
(Ref scriptures: Ezekiel 43:1-4; 44:1-3; Zechariah 14:3, 4; Matthew 21:1-5; Acts 1:10-12; Rev 21:9-27)
(Side note):
Zechariah 14:3,4 speaks of Jesus coming down to plant His feet on the Mount of Olives that faces the east of Jerusalem and will cause the mountain to split in half from east to west making a very large valley. I never thought of this before, but it could be that valley is the Garden of Eden that has laid under ground all these years. Something to think about.
I think it to be more a metaphor, but don't think we will ever know for sure until Jesus returns than all our questions will be answered, or maybe seem not so important anymore.
