If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[JLB]

Why do you think there would be such a silly verse? Because Scripture NEVER describes one who has believed, but then ceases to believe, an unbeliever. That occurs only in your mind, but not the Bible.

So you can cease from asking this irrelevant and silly question.

I have shown that God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29. And that eternal life is one of God's gifts, from Rom 6:23. Connecting those dots just isn't that difficult. You won't connect them because you are convinced that one can lose eternal life, but that is in spite of what the Scripture very clearly states.

One who has believed has the irrevocable gift of eternal life. So even if such a one ceases to believe, he still possesses the irrevocable gift of eternal life.

You've failed to prove otherwise from Scripture.

Yes, it's in my mind, and it got there by reading it in the bible.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers.

Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Do the sons of God [angels] that have eternal life and are cast down to hell, die there, or do they continue to exist there?

Whoa. Who ever said that angels have eternal life? Please show me the Scripture that says so before I'll answer your question. I don't believe any angels have been given God's gift of eternal life. That gift is only for humans.

But I gladly encourage you to disprove my belief by providing Scripture that teaches that God has given the gift of eternal life to angels who have fallen and are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4JLB

I think you've just bitten off much more than you can chew.

You have claimed that fallen angels have eternal life. Now, you're going to have to prove it from Scripture.

This just gets better and better. I think I'll go pop some popcorn.

 

[JLB]

I have shown that God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

Do all natural Jews have eternal life?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, it's in my mind, and it got there by reading it in the bible.

You have yet to provide any verse that teaches what you claim.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Jesus never mentioned that they lost their salvation. So, which verse were you thinking of?

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers.

Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a whileJLB

This is just fuzzy logic which comes from assumption.

I'm asking for a clear verse that says outright that salvation will be lost if one ceases to believe.

The problem with your view is that there are no such verses. The opinion is based on assumption only.

My view is based solidly on biblical fact.

The gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
The gift of eternal life is given through faith in Christ. Jn 3:16, 6:40

 

[JLB]

Whoa. Who ever said that angels have eternal life? Please show me the Scripture that says so before I'll answer your question.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


... nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You have yet to provide any verse that teaches what you claim.

Just because you deny it, doesn't make it go away.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

 

[FreeGrace]

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

Do all natural Jews have eternal life?
JLB

I really have no idea what your question has to do with Rom 11:28-29. I see no relevance at all.

I know wht Paul meant by "gifts of God" in 11:29. Because he previously described what he meant.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:23

And I know how one is placed IN CHRIST:
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

I have bolded the words that prove my view. One HAS eternal life WHEN one believes.

I have supported my view with Scripture that actually SAYS what I believe. You have not.

 

[FreeGrace]

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


... nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God.


JLB

Who ever said that angels have eternal life? Please show me the Scripture that says so before I'll answer your question.

Unfortunately for your view, Luke 20:35-36 does NOT say that fallen angels have eternal life.

The phrase "nor can they die anymore" only means they will exist forever. That is hardly having eternal life.

So, where is the verse? You haven't provided any evidence for your view.

 

[JLB]

This is just fuzzy logic which comes from assumption.

I'm asking for a clear verse that says outright that salvation will be lost if one ceases to believe.

The problem with your view is that there are no such verses. The opinion is based on assumption only.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers.

Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

My view is based solidly on biblical fact.

The gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
The gift of eternal life is given through faith in Christ. Jn 3:16, 6:40

Through faith is Christ, yes.

Do you believe it is impossible for a person to stop having faith in Christ?

Those who do not have faith in Christ any longer, are un-faithful, and unbelieving.


Please post the scriptures that say unfaithful and unbelieving have eternal life.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"You have yet to provide any verse that teaches what you claim."

Just because you deny it, doesn't make it go away.

What I said isn't a denial. It's a claim. It's a challenge for you to provide evidence for your claim, which you have not given yet.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

OK, Jesus acknowledges that some believers will cease to believe. So? Where did Jesus SAY (I do not mean assume, by Him or you) that ceasing to believe results in loss of salvation?

You keep providing verses and I keep proving that they DON'T teach what you claim.

 

[JLB]

I really have no idea what your question has to do with Rom 11:28-29. I see no relevance at all.

Do all natural Jews have eternal life?



JLB

 

[JLB]

What I said isn't a denial. It's a claim. It's a challenge for you to provide evidence for your claim, which you have not given yet.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe for a while is temporary believing.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

What gives you the idea that those who believe for a while are saved, after they no longer believe?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers.

I'm not interested in one's opinions. I am only interested in what the Word of God says.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while

Assumption only. No facts. And Luke 8:13 certainly doesn't say this.

Please post the scriptures that say unfaithful and unbelieving have eternal life.JLB
Been there, done that. But I'll gladly do it again.

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, since you disagree, please address of my points of analysis and show how my points are unbiblical.

iow, you will need to explain EACH of the verses, as I did, but show that they don't say what I believe they say.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do all natural Jews have eternal life?JLB

Of course not. But, please, ask only relevant questions. These rabbit trails are meaningless.

 

[FreeGrace]

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe for a while is temporary believing.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

What gives you the idea that those who believe for a while are saved, after they no longer believe?
JLB

I'm done with your assumptions. They lead nowhere.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually, not. There are no conditions in Eph 1:13, 14, or 4:30, or 2 Cor 1:22 or 5:5 that add any condition other than having believed.

Your doctrine is not rightly dividing the word of God. It's citing passages to prove a point while it ignores this part of the word:

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

This part of the Bible makes it impossible for you to use the verses you cited to prove there are no conditions attached to salvation. Your doctrine is guilty of not rightly dividing the word of God.

It is easy to consult any Greek lexicon and learn that the single word means to "possess".

Now read the passage again. You have to hold fast (possess) the word you heard and are saved by in order to be saved. 'Possessing' the word of God is a condition for being saved. But your doctrine insists there is condition for being saved. To cast the word away is to no longer believe the word. The person who stops hanging onto the gospel in faith will not be saved. The person who no longer believes is the one who casts the word of God behind them, not the person who is steadfast in their faith. The steadfast, persevering person will be saved. The person who is not steadfast in their faith in Christ will NOT be saved.

For those who may feel convicted by that, this is not about honest doubt, or struggle. This is about the person who makes a conscious, willful decision, not under duress, to not want to believe in the truth anymore. They love the ways of the world and the flesh more than the gospel and the kingdom and they simply decide they'd rather live for those rather than the gospel and they cast the word of God away:

16But to the wicked God says...
17For you hate discipline,
And you cast My words behind you."
(Psalm 50:16-17 NASB bold mine)

But your doctrine says the believer who does this is still saved, even though they are now a wicked unbeliever who no longer possesses the word of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course not. But, please, ask only relevant questions. These rabbit trails are meaningless.

No, his is hardly a meaningless, irrelevant question.
Do not ignore it.

 

[OzSpen]

I said this:
"Yet, there is no place in Scripture that tells us that one must continue in the faith in order to continue to be saved or have eternal life."

I have demonstrated otherwise from the Scriptures but you don't want to receive it.

Bye.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your doctrine is not rightly dividing the word of God. It's citing passages to prove a point while it ignores this part of the word:

Now, that is an interesting comment. You acknowledge that I have cited passages that prove my point but claim that I ahven't rightly divided the Word of God. I guess you just don't know how contradictory that is.

'...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

This part of the Bible makes it impossible for you to use the verses you cited to prove there are no conditions attached to salvation. Your doctrine is guilty of not rightly dividing the word of God.

Do you believe that God's Word is contradictory? If 1 Cor 15:1-2 means what you think it means, then Paul has contradicted himself because of what he wrote in Rom 6:23 with 11:29. Which you've never refuted.

Now read the passage again. You have to hold fast (possess) the word you heard and are saved by in order to be saved. 'Possessing' the word of God is a condition for being saved. But your doctrine insists there is condition for being saved. To cast the word away is to no longer believe the word. The person who stops hanging onto the gospel in faith will not be saved. The person who no longer believes is the one who casts the word of God behind them, not the person who is steadfast in their faith. The steadfast, persevering person will be saved. The person who is not steadfast in their faith in Christ will NOT be saved.

Actually, to "possess the word" obviously refers to possessing eternal life. Why? Because when one believes the Word (gospel) through faith in Christ, they possess eternal life.

But it seems you believe something totally different. That no one possesses eternal life until the judgment, or some such thing. And all without proof from Scripture.

For those who may feel convicted by that, this is not about honest doubt, or struggle. This is about the person who makes a conscious, willful decision, not under duress, to not want to believe in the truth anymore.

To be clear, those who cease to believe are clearly under duress. Just like Chuck Templeton, the evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham. The problem with ol' Chuck was that he couldn't reconcile the conflict with the teaching of a young earth with the evidence from science about an old earth. So he just chucked the whole thing.

No one just jettisons their faith without reason. Or just make a willful decision. In fact, Jesus gave us the reason WHY people quit believing in Luke 8:13:
“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

So, they believe for a while, but when temptation comes, and they cannot handle it, they fall away.

The phrase "fall away" refers directly back to believing. iow, first they believe, then after temptation, they quit believing. Just like ol' Chuck T.

They love the ways of the world and the flesh more than the gospel and the kingdom and they simply decide they'd rather live for those rather than the gospel and they cast the word of God away:

16But to the wicked God says...
17For you hate discipline,
And you cast My words behind you."
(Psalm 50:16-17 NASB bold mine)

So, where in these verses do you read about losing salvation or eternal life? I sure don't see it.

But your doctrine says the believer who does this is still saved, even though they are now a wicked unbeliever who no longer possesses the word of God.

Nope. No believer is EVER called an "unbeliever" in the Bible. That word is reserved for those who NEVER believed and therefore NEVER received the free and irrevocable gift of eternal life.

When God brings out the "book of life" during the Great White Throne judgment, it is those who's names are NOT in that book who are cast into the lake of fire.

Those who ever received the free and irrevocable gift of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Compare John 3:16 and 5:24 with 10:28. It's all there; clear as a bell.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, his is hardly a meaningless, irrelevant question.
Do not ignore it.

I am going to ignore any meaningless and irrelevant question.