If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

I have demonstrated otherwise from the Scriptures but you don't want to receive it.

Bye.

Your call. No problem.

Just remember how we fought side by side against the Calvinists regarding the fact that Scripture is clear that Christ died for everyone, and we used 1 Cor 15:3-11 as proof of that.

I've always been able to show that my views are supported by Scripture.

Eternal security is as clear to me as unlimited atonement.

 

[smaller]

Whoa. Who ever said that angels have eternal life? Please show me the Scripture that says so before I'll answer your question. I don't believe any angels have been given God's gift of eternal life. That gift is only for humans.

But I gladly encourage you to disprove my belief by providing Scripture that teaches that God has given the gift of eternal life to angels who have fallen and are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire.


I think you've just bitten off much more than you can chew.

You have claimed that fallen angels have eternal life. Now, you're going to have to prove it from Scripture.

This just gets better and better. I think I'll go pop some popcorn.

Already been down this road with him. The position is very "mormon" like.

They go from here:

Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

to here:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

And they say, hey! God is the Father of antiChrist spirits!

Then making Satan Jesus' bad brother and Gods errant wicked son.

They never consider that IF God is the Father of antiChrist spirits, then WHO really is GOD?

The logic won't work out. Evil/wicked spirits are a temporal creation, made precisely to be destroyed. Otherwise we end up with the Father being the Father of the antiChrist.

 

[smaller]

Do all natural Jews have eternal life?

JLB

Moses did not enter the promised land because of UNbelief.

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Is Moses going to be in the LoF because of unbelief? How about everyone else? Aaron, all the others?

 

[FreeGrace]

Already been down this road with him. The position is very "mormon" like.

They go from here:

Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

to here:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

And they say, hey! God is the Father of antiChrist spirits!

Then making Satan Jesus' bad brother and Gods errant wicked son.

They never consider that IF God is the Father of antiChrist spirits, then WHO really is GOD?

The logic won't work out. Evil/wicked spirits are a temporal creation, made precisely to be destroyed. Otherwise we end up with the Father being the Father of the antiChrist.

His problem was compounded when he indicated that fallen angels have eternal life. I guess he thinks that all humans who will exist eternally in the lake of fire also have eternal life, huh.

Just shows that the other side hasn't actually done their homework to see where their notions will lead them.

The lake of fire is called the second death 4 times: Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, and 21:8.

It should be obvious to all that those who have been given the free and irrevocable gift of eternal life cannot possibly ever end up in the "second death".

Such a notion is so obviously internally contradicted.

Life and death are total opposites. And people will exist consciously in the second death.

 

[smaller]

His problem was compounded when he indicated that fallen angels have eternal life. I guess he thinks that all humans who will exist eternally in the lake of fire also have eternal life, huh.

Just shows that the other side hasn't actually done their homework to see where their notions will lead them.

The lake of fire is called the second death 4 times: Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, and 21:8.

It should be obvious to all that those who have been given the free and irrevocable gift of eternal life cannot possibly ever end up in the "second death".

Such a notion is so obviously internally contradicted.

Life and death are total opposites. And people will exist consciously in the second death.

In all fairness, the scripture regarding being not being harmed by the LoF and it having no power over them does not necessarily mean that "believers" will not be exposed to same.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We also know that said torture does take place in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

So the notions that this goes on "somewhere else" may not be all that accurate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now, that is an interesting comment. You acknowledge that I have cited passages that prove my point but claim that I ahven't rightly divided the Word of God. I guess you just don't know how contradictory that is.

Lol, that's hardly contradictory. Your doctrine misuses various passages of scripture to attempt to prove a point, but it can't use them that way because of what other passages in the Bible say. That's called not rightly dividing the word of God.

Do you believe that God's Word is contradictory? If 1 Cor 15:1-2 means what you think it means, then Paul has contradicted himself because of what he wrote in Rom 6:23 with 11:29.

No, I don't think the Bible contradicts itself. That's why passages like John 5:24 have to be understood in light of passages like 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. When one does that the word does not contradict itself. But when your doctrine tries to redefine the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB in order to defend a particular meaning of John 5:24 then you cause the very contradiction you say doesn't exist in the word.

Actually, to "possess the word" obviously refers to possessing eternal life.

No, the passage PLAINLY says what needs to held fast is the word that was preached:

'...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)"" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

It's impossible to deny it. You can't just decide it doesn't say 'hold fast to the word' and say it says 'hold fast eternal life'. It doesn't say that. It says what I am defending, not what you are defending. Anybody can see with his own eyes that it says 'hold fast the word'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But it seems you believe something totally different. That no one possesses eternal life until the judgment, or some such thing. And all without proof from Scripture.

You honestly really didn't understand what I said? Really?
We have eternal life by the Holy Spirit right now. We will get the fullness of eternal life in the Holy Spirit in glorified, immortal bodies at the Judgment (1 Corinthians 15:52-54 NASB). But you are insisting we have that fullness now? I'm pretty sure you do have 1) the fullness of the Holy Spirit, nor 2) an immortal body. And that you have the hope of those things to come. Am I right? If you say, 'yes', then you agree that eternal life is not only now, but is also yet to be revealed and given to us.

In light of 1 Corinthians 15, feel free to explain how we have the sum total of eternal life now, and not just a part of it.

 

[JLB]

Moses did not enter the promised land because of UNbelief.

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Is Moses going to be in the LoF because of unbelief? How about everyone else? Aaron, all the others?

Do all natural Jews have eternal life?

 

[smaller]

Do all natural Jews have eternal life?

Ask Paul:

Romans 7:25-31

 

[FreeGrace]

Lol, that's hardly contradictory. Your doctrine misuses various passages of scripture to attempt to prove a point, but it can't use them that way because of what other passages in the Bible say. That's called not rightly dividing the word of God.

Well, that's just your opinion.

No, I don't think the Bible contradicts itself. That's why passages like John 5:24 have to be understood in light of passages like 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB.

No, 1 Cor 15:1-2 do not define or explain Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29, which is the problem with your view. Those verses cannot be reconciled with your views.

But when your doctrine tries to redefine the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB in order to defend a particular meaning of John 5:24 then you cause the very contradiction you say doesn't exist in the word.

Please explain clearly how I've "re-defined" anything.

It's impossible to deny it. You can't just decide it doesn't say 'hold fast to the word' and say it says 'hold fast eternal life'. It doesn't say that. It says what I am defending, not what you are defending. Anybody can see with his own eyes that it says 'hold fast the word'.

I'll tell you what the Word of God says. That the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Your view does not accept that, but believes that eternal life can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

You honestly really didn't understand what I said? Really?
We have eternal life by the Holy Spirit right now. We will get the fullness of eternal life in the Holy Spirit in glorified, immortal bodies at the Judgment (1 Corinthians 15:52-54 NASB). But you are insisting we have that fullness now? I'm pretty sure you do have 1) the fullness of the Holy Spirit, nor 2) an immortal body. And that you have the hope of those things to come. Am I right? If you say, 'yes', then you agree that eternal life is not only now, but is also yet to be revealed and given to us.

In light of 1 Corinthians 15, feel free to explain how we have the sum total of eternal life now, and not just a part of it.

Where does "sum total" or "just a part" even fit in to this discussion??

Jesus tells us that when we believe, we HAVE eternal life. That's what I believe and have said. Nothing beyond that.

Please quit trying to move the goal posts.

 

[smaller]

Jesus tells us that when we believe, we HAVE eternal life. That's what I believe and have said. Nothing beyond that.

It's always a bit odd having conversations with believers trying to convince them that Jesus actually does save believers, isn't it?

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[WIP]

I think it would be beneficial to the discussion if members directly address each other rather than talking as if behind other's backs or others do not exist. I've seen it a few times now and it really doesn't come across very respectful and therefore in my opinion is a violation of ToS 2.4.
Thank you.

 

[OzSpen]

Your call. No problem.

Just remember how we fought side by side against the Calvinists regarding the fact that Scripture is clear that Christ died for everyone, and we used 1 Cor 15:3-11 as proof of that.

I've always been able to show that my views are supported by Scripture.

Eternal security is as clear to me as unlimited atonement.

And perseverance of the saints is as clear to me as unlimited atonement, but some have committed apostasy or shipwrecked their faith. The exegesis is crystal clear to me.

 

[FreeGrace]

And perseverance of the saints is as clear to me as unlimited atonement, but some have committed apostasy or shipwrecked their faith. The exegesis is crystal clear to me.

I don't find perseverance of the saints in Scripture. I find that some have abandoned the faith (1 Tim 4:1), Jesus noted some "believe for a while and then fell away". And there are verses that clearly encourage believers to "remain true to the Lord".

God's gifts are irrevocable. That is clear. And eternal life is a gift of God. That is clear.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't find perseverance of the saints in Scripture. I find that some have abandoned the faith (1 Tim 4:1), Jesus noted some "believe for a while and then fell away". And there are verses that clearly encourage believers to "remain true to the Lord".

God's gifts are irrevocable. That is clear. And eternal life is a gift of God. That is clear.

You don't find the exact word Trinity in the Bible but the teaching of the Trinity is there for all to see.

The same with perseverance of the saints. We see it in John 3:36 (ESV),

Whoever believes [continues believing] in the Son has [continues having] eternal life; whoever does not obey [continues not obeying] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains [continues remaining] on him.

What I have inserted in [square brackets] indicates the meaning of the Greek present tense. There is only eternal life for those who continue believing in the Son, Jesus, and continue to remain in him. There is no eternal life for those who continue not to obey the Son.

Oz

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does "sum total" or "just a part" even fit in to this discussion??

Jesus tells us that when we believe, we HAVE eternal life. That's what I believe and have said. Nothing beyond that.

Please quit trying to move the goal posts.

When did you receive your body that will never die?
I'm confident that, if you're born again, you only have part of eternal life right now. You'll get the rest of it, which includes your immortal body, at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15). Do you have a problem with that doctrine? As you can see, it's impossible to argue that believers have the sum total of eternal life right now. Each one of us is still in our MORTAL bodies. We don't have our never dying, eternally living bodies yet. But we do have a down payment of the 'zoe' life of Jesus in us through the promissory note of the Holy Spirit right now. We will receive the fullnfess of what the promissory note of the Holy Spirit represents at the resurrection. And I'm pretty sure it's not going to be just a measure of the Holy Spirit, like now, but the full measure of the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

You don't find the exact word Trinity in the Bible but the teaching of the Trinity is there for all to see.

The same with perseverance of the saints. We see it in John 3:36 (ESV),

I don't understand why one would believe in the perseverance of the saints and still believe in loss of salvation.

What I have inserted in [square brackets] indicates the meaning of the Greek present tense. There is only eternal life for those who continue believing in the Son, Jesus, and continue to remain in him. There is no eternal life for those who continue not to obey the Son.
Oz

I've shown how you've abused the present tense. It does not mean continuously on and on.

The Bible is clear; eternal life is a gift of God from Rom 6:23 and God's gifts are irrevocable from Rom 11:29.

Therefore, anyone who has been given the gift of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 3:16, 10:28

If your understanding were true, there would be verses containing clear warnings of how one might lose eternal life.

But there aren't any.

All arguments about loss of salvation/eternal life are just extrapolated from warning verses that don't even mention either salvation or eternal life.

But the clear verses tell us that God's gifts, which would include eternal life, are irrevocable. Paul did nothing to exclude eternal life from Rom 11:29. And he was clear about eternal life being a gift of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

When did you receive your body that will never die?

No one will until the resurrection.

I'm confident that, if you're born again, you only have part of eternal life right now. You'll get the rest of it, which includes your immortal body, at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15). Do you have a problem with that doctrine?

Yes. I fully have God's life right now, eternal life. Which will never die. Jn 11:27 - and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

As you can see, it's impossible to argue that believers have the sum total of eternal life right now.

Why do you keep moving the goal posts? What does 'sum total' have to do with anything? Those who have believed HAVE eternal life. Do you understand the present tense here? They don't have "part of eternal life".

Each one of us is still in our MORTAL bodies. We don't have our never dying, eternally living bodies yet. But we do have a down payment of the 'zoe' life of Jesus in us through the promissory note of the Holy Spirit right now. We will receive the fullnfess of what the promissory note of the Holy Spirit represents at the resurrection. And I'm pretty sure it's not going to be just a measure of the Holy Spirit, like now, but the full measure of the Spirit.

What does any of this have to do with your view that one can lose eternal life? You've shown no Scripture about loss of eternal life.

And I've shown Scripture that says that eternal life is a gift of God, and Scripture that says that God's gifts are irrevocable. And both in the same epistle.

 

[JLB]

Do all natural Jews have eternal life?

Ask Paul:

Romans 7:25-31

I asking you. I know what Paul said. It as plain as day.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23

The natural branches = Jews
The wild branches = Gentiles

The Tree = Christ Jesus the Lord

Because of unbelief they were broken off.

In the Tree = eternal life
Removed from the tree = removed from eternal life


Is it possible for a person to be cut off from God?

The warning is clear, and makes OSAS False!

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB