If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[smaller]

I asking you. I know what Paul said. It as plain as day.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23

The natural branches = Jews
The wild branches = Gentiles

The Tree = Christ Jesus the Lord

Because of unbelief they were broken off.

In the Tree = eternal life
Removed from the tree = removed from eternal life

Is it possible for a person to be cut off from God?

Depends entirely on your sight of the people of ISRAEL.

Paul tells us, clearly, what happened to Israel "in/of the flesh" in Romans 11:8. God Himself put upon them a spirit of slumber so they couldn't believe OR be obedient after the flesh.

The fact that this "spirit" was put upon them makes it "them as Gods children" AND the spirit of slumber in their flesh.

You don't see this, and no one can see this, if they can't see their own flesh the same way.

Paul draws this out for himself first, in Romans 7, then draws it out on Israel, Esau and Pharaoh in Romans 9, and culminates these "hard line Spiritual facts" in Romans 11 upon ALL of unbelieving Israel, showing that spirit of slumber put upon THEM, in our behalves.

The warning is clear, and makes OSAS False!

Everyone has a spirit of slumber/stupor upon their own flesh, to deal with.

It's entirely up to God Himself to allow people to see it, OR NOT.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

JLB

The spirit of slumber/stupor is upon ALL flesh.

That is why Paul tells US to AWAKEN and to put off that darkness ourselves in Romans 13, the center piece of Romans. If we had no darkness, no SLEEP to awaken from, there would be no cause for him to point to it. The "spirit of slumber" is not and can not be accepted in the flesh of any man, and particular that upon believers own flesh.

Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

The SPIRITUAL methodology Paul employs to cast off this spirit of slumber, the works of darkness, is very specific in Romans 13:8-10.

It is the opposite, that believers do, when condemning each others, and failing to see the condition of their own flesh. And that condition IS brought on by the spirit of slumber/sleep, so much that even believers can not see THEMSELVES accurately. If you saw you'd be making the opposite claims from the seat you are in.

But, not my call. A man in slumber can not see his works of darkness to cast off, the sleep he is to awaken from, and lastly, to expose the spirit of slumber upon their own flesh. They are in fact under SLEEP.

Honesty can bring it to the LIGHT.

In carrying the Gospel, we are NOT to lay a stumbling block in front of ANY person.

We can however rips the covers off, the spirit of stupor/slumber/works of darkness, WHEN we see this upon our own selves. It is at that point, we AWAKE to that reality.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do all natural Jews have eternal life?

Only the natural Jews who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life.

Why is that question important?

 

[JLB]

The fact that this "spirit" was put upon them makes it "them as Gods children" AND the spirit of slumber in their flesh.

Please show the scripture that says a spirit of slumber was "in their flesh".

 

[smaller]

Please show the scripture that says a spirit of slumber was "in their flesh".

Read Mark 4:15 to understand "how" their blindness came upon them, and where, i.e. IN THEIR HEART and "who/what" that wicked spirit is.

 

[JLB]

Only the natural Jews who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life.

Why is that question important?

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23

We are told that the were cut off "because of unbelief".
We are told that if they do not continue in unbelief they can be grafted back in.
We are told that we also can be cut off if, we do not continue in goodness.

If this is about eternal life, then we are warn we can be cut off from eternal life as some of them were.

If this is not about eternal life, then Romans 11;29 is not about eternal life.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Only the natural Jews who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life.

Why is that question important?

I brought it up regarding Moses not entering into the promised land because of unbelief, yet Moses was saved, regardless.

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

This unbelief did NOT result in their eternal damnation.

 

[FreeGrace]

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23

We are told that the were cut off "because of unbelief".
We are told that if they do not continue in unbelief they can be grafted back in.
We are told that we also can be cut off if, we do not continue in goodness.

If this is about eternal life, then we are warn we can be cut off from eternal life as some of them were.

If this is not about eternal life, then Romans 11;29 is not about eternal life.
JLB

The error in your second "if" statement. You must show WHY 11:29 wouldn't be about eternal life just because 11:22-23 isn't about eternal life.

Your claim must be shown. It hasn't yet. Since Paul never mentioned anything about gifts in ch 11 until he wrote v.29, there is no reason to think that v.22-23 is about eternal life.

In fact, the whole point of the nation of Israel being 'elect' or chosen was for service to God. So v.22-23 is about service to God. Those who cease to believe will be "cut off" from service to God. iow, He will cease to use them.

To the Jew at that time, that was a shocking idea; that God would not use them for His service. That's what they were so proud of.

Regardless, Paul had already noted several of God's gifts: spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life in 6:23. Which is why Paul used the plural "gifts" in 11:29. He meant all of the gifts he previously described as what gifts of God are irrevocable.

There is no way to separate the gift of eternal life from 6:23 from the gifts of God that are irrevocable in 11:29.

Because of this direct connection, 11:22-23 simply cannot be about salvation or eternal life.

In fact, v.28 makes clear the subject of v.22-23. "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs"

 

[JLB]

Since Paul never mentioned anything about gifts in ch 11 until he wrote v.29, there is no reason to think that v.22-23 is about eternal life.

Those who were in unbelief were cut off.

The can be grafted back in, if they don't continue in unbelief.

Likewise we are plainly taught the we too can in fact, be in danger of being cut off, if we don't continue...

Ignoring theses plain words, only shows the weakness of your theory. As being from man and not from the scriptures.

Those who fall into unbelief will be cut off, and remain cut off, unless they believe again.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in Hisgoodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23

Read Mark 4:15 to understand "how" their blindness came upon them, and where, i.e. IN THEIR HEART and "who/what" that wicked spirit is.

Just post the scripture, written out for all to see that says a spirit of slumber was "in their flesh".


JLB

 

[smaller]

Just post the scripture, written out for all to see that says a spirit of slumber was "in their flesh".
JLB

Mark 4:15 couldn't be any clearer.

Why were they not able to hear? Not able to see?

The Word was in fact "stolen" from them by our mutual adversary, just as Jesus said.

And yes, this activity still transpires with everyone who picks up The Word and FAILS to perceive this fact.

They can not HEAR the fact BY the fact.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who were in unbelief were cut off.

The can be grafted back in, if they don't continue in unbelief.

THat's correct. How can one serve God if they haven't continued in belief? One must believe in order to serve God.

Just what I've been saying.

Likewise we are plainly taught the we too can in fact, be in danger of being cut off, if we don't continue…

I've explained what "cut off" means. Your explanation is directly contrary to Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29.

Ignoring theses plain words, only shows the weakness of your theory. As being from man and not from the scriptures.

I haven't ignored "cut off". I explained it so that it agrees with all that Paul said.

Those who fall into unbelief will be cut off, and remain cut off, unless they believe again.

Correct. They will be cut off from serving God unless they believe again.

If this refers to loss of salvation, then Paul totally contradicted himself, and badly.

Paul was clear about what constitutes "gifts of God": justification from 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life from 6:23.

These gifts are irrevocable, from 11:29.

 

[JLB]

THat's correct. How can one serve God if they haven't continued in belief? One must believe in order to serve God.

Just what I've been saying.


I've explained what "cut off" means. Your explanation is directly contrary to Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29.


I haven't ignored "cut off". I explained it so that it agrees with all that Paul said.


Correct. They will be cut off from serving God unless they believe again.

If this refers to loss of salvation, then Paul totally contradicted himself, and badly.

Paul was clear about what constitutes "gifts of God": justification from 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life from 6:23.

These gifts are irrevocable, from 11:29.

Sow your saying Paul is not talking about salvation, though his language is clear.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles...
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief,.
Sorry, your redefining of biblical truth, and re-packaging the meaning of the scriptures is not accepted.

Paul was clear about what constitutes "gifts of God": justification from 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life from 6:23.

Does Romans 11:29 mention eternal life?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

You can't get around these words either, so you just "make up" some "other" meaning for cast into the fire and burned, which hasn't worked either.

The more you "redefine" the words of Jesus, the more people see it.

Tells us again what cast into the fire and burned means?
If a believer no longer believes, then is he a believer or an unbeliever/


JLB

 

[JLB]

Mark 4:15 couldn't be any clearer.

Why were they not able to hear? Not able to see?

The Word was in fact "stolen" from them by our mutual adversary, just as Jesus said.

And yes, this activity still transpires with everyone who picks up The Word and FAILS to perceive this fact.

They can not HEAR the fact BY the fact.

How about Paul?

Was the devil working within Him?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

THat's correct. How can one serve God if they haven't continued in belief? One must believe in order to serve God.

Just what I've been saying.

"22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’" (Matthew 7: NASB capitals in original)

According to you, these people can only being doing these works as believers, yet they are condemned as unbelievers. So you must be wrong. It is not necessary to believe in order to serve God.

Sow your saying Paul is not talking about salvation, though his language is clear.

Look at this:

Freegrace says to not abide in Jesus doesn't mean you don't have eternal life. It means you don't have fellowship with Jesus/God, but you still have eternal life. But look what John says:

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11 NASB)

John plainly says eternal life is in the Son, and whoever doesn't have the Son doesn't have eternal life, but Freegrace says you still have eternal life when you are cut off from Jesus.

 

[JLB]

John plainly says eternal life is in the Son, and whoever doesn't have the Son doesn't have eternal life, but Freegrace says you still have eternal life when you are cut off from Jesus.

Unfortunately, I know all to well his position, and it is not biblical.

Thank you for standing for the truth.

In the words of Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit... Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2

JLB

 

[smaller]

How about Paul?
Was the devil working within Him?
JLB

Sin dwells in the flesh of everyone, including that of believers, just as it was with Paul. Evil is present with us just as it was for Paul.

Paul was no pollyanna about his own flesh, that's for sure, showing it to be contrary and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. 2 Cor. 12:7

So at least Paul didn't try to sell us on the notions of the flesh being able to work itself into heaven whatsoever.

In those sights Paul was brutally honest about the Spirit being against and contrary to his own flesh. Not something many believers appear to be able to fess up to. I'll follow the honest Apostle because what he says IS provable truth to any IN TRUTH.

The above is also why salvation can not be lost. Cause we were already LOST when we were FOUND.

 

[WIP]

Please address others directly. Speaking about others as if they have left the room or in this case left the discussion is not very polite and disrespectful. It is akin to having a discussion with a group when suddenly two of them start talking about you as if you're not there. That would be rude. I ask that we please don't do this.

Thank you.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sow your saying Paul is not talking about salvation, though his language is clear.

Yes, because his language is so clear.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles…

Along with salvation comes the free gift of eternal life, which Paul was very clear about. God's gifts are irrevocable. Proving that v.22-23 cannot be about loss of salvation. Or Paul would have contradicted himself terribly.

btw, v.11 isn't in direct context with v.22-23.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief,.
Sorry, your redefining of biblical truth, and re-packaging the meaning of the scriptures is not accepted.

I'm sorry that you're sorry, but Paul tells us that eternal life is a gift of God, and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Does Romans 11:29 mention eternal life?

No need. He already described eternal life as a free gift of God in 6:23, and he DIDN'T exclude eternal life from what he wrote in 11:29.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Where do you see salvation here, or loss of salvation here? I've already explained what it means to "abide". You are free to accept or reject it. But the truth is the truth.

Here are some verses regarding fellowship:

1 Cor 1:9 - God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Phil 2:1 - Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion
1 John 1:3 - what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth
1 John 1:7 - but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

[Edited responses to personal remarks. WIP]

Tells us again what cast into the fire and burned means?

Please fix your sentence.

If a believer no longer believes, then is he a believer or an unbeliever/
JLB

He is a saved apostate. You have failed to show ANY verses that refer a believer who no longer believes as an "unbeliever". Until you do, there is no reason to accept your re-definition of things.

Clearly, the Bible does note that some believers will no longer believe.

Just as clearly, the Bible claims that God's free gift of eternal life is irrevocable. You've never gotten around that.

 

[FreeGrace]

"22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’" (Matthew 7: NASB capitals in original)

According to you, these people can only being doing these works as believers, yet they are condemned as unbelievers. So you must be wrong. It is not necessary to believe in order to serve God.

Actually, you're wrong. What you think is "according to me" is NOT AT ALL what I believe. I REJECT what you claim as what I believe. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 are all unbelievers who were religious and thought they could earn their way into heaven, as many in the conditional security crowd seem to believe. Their whole appeal was based on their works, what they did in Jesus' name. Kinda like Mother Theresa. None of them were ever saved.

Look at this:
Freegrace says to not abide in Jesus doesn't mean you don't have eternal life. It means you don't have fellowship with Jesus/God, but you still have eternal life. But look what John says:

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11 NASB)

John plainly says eternal life is in the Son, and whoever doesn't have the Son doesn't have eternal life, but Freegrace says you still have eternal life when you are cut off from Jesus.

Once again, you have clearly demonstrated that you fail to understand what abiding means.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately, I know all to well his position, and it is not biblical.

Thank you for standing for the truth.

Here is the truth:
The free gift of God is eternal life. Rom 6:23
God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

Do you know the truth?

 

[WIP]

I'm trying to be a little less rigid but I must admit that it has been difficult catching all of these things but please stop injecting your own personal determinations about what others "believe" or "fail to understand" or "make (things) up" or other similar phrases. Nobody knows what another truly believes or understands. Only God knows. We can only guess and share what we understand about the other person or his/her view and we can do a better job of phrasing things politely to that end. To catch all these little inuendos and jabs is costing too much of my personal time editing.

The only other option I have short of issuing vacations from the thread or worse is to just delete entire posts when I see these little quips. I don't want to have to go that route and I don't think you want me to do that either so I'm asking that you take more care in how you write your posts.

Thank you.