Bible Study Free will

[GodsGrace]

Good question. Vanity is difficult to articulate in it's implications because of semantics. But I will try to elaborate. I call vanity taking God for granted in unthankfulness. That would look like, questioning what God has made me or given me in comparison to others.

Okay, We agree on the interpretive meaning of vanity. Many take God for granted -not undersatanding what He did for us.

You mention pride in what we do. But do we thank God Who made us able to do the work? Do we thank Him for our being useful? Or do we congratulate ourselves while we expect the same from others? External beauty is also given and also taken away. Thus the beauty given should not be applied to one's value as a person. Beauty puffs up our carnal self esteem, while ugliness brings us low self esteem, but only if we are vain. Do we thank God for learning this? Do we realize why we experience both? Do we treat the beautiful and the ugly without prejudice? Romans 8:20.

I'd say we're a sinful bunch. I know beauty is only sin deep, but I'd rather be pretty than not pretty. Even though I don't think I'm worth anything more. The worth is something internal. Are we worth anything at all beyond the purpose God might have for us? Maybe accepting our worth in HIS purpose is what could keep us joyful and satisfied. I'm the least satisified when I'm trying to achieve my own goals - far from what God wants me to do at any given point. For instance if I leave my family to go to bible study instead of staying home and being with them because of some need. So staying home is the right choice sometimes even if I love bible study. It's God's purpose we should follow, not our own.

Good word, envy. What is the opposite of envy? I think it's being thankful for what one has instead of focusing on what one does not have.
It works two ways: Things are imagined to be worse or to be better, than they really are.
The grass is greener is an illusion. Where I'm presently at, appears worse than over there, which is imagined to be better than where I'm at here.
To think more highly of myself than I ought to, is pride and vanity.That's easy to understand. But to think less of myself than I ought to, is also pride and vanity. How is that? Because I think I should be better than what I am. See Satan, wanting to be as high as God. Both take God for granted in un-thankfulness. This is a battle in the mind hidden in semantics. Because if I think more of myself than I ought to, then I should think lesser of myself, yet it is not vanity.

Of course, dragging myself down could be vanity too. "Look how lowly I am - I must be worth more in God's eyes".
Yes. Persons like this have bothered me. God demands that I be joyful - it's also a method of combating the evil one who wants us to be lowly or feel lowly. A healthy "keeping the head high" is, I think, what God would want.
To be thankful is to be happy for what you have and to show that happiness. And, when circumstances make it difficult to show happiness, at least we could show joy in knowing the Lord.

The main point is that, there exists a no fault scenario, wherein what is fair to one person is not fair to another, and visa versa, and yet it is no one's fault. This unfair relationship must depend upon faith, mercy and understanding. Patience and empathy also comes to mind.

Freewill doctrine exists so as to not blame God for sin. But it also exists to blame sin on man, who is made in God's Image. So either way, God gets blamed and the lie questions what is Holy either in the Maker or in what the Maker has created. This is part of the cunning of the serpents lie who sows enmity between man and God from a manufactured and imagined fault. Vanity finds fault where there is none, in unthankfulness to God. This is why freewill doctrine is vanity, when used to condemn. There was a saint who was a hermit, who upon meeting any other person, greeted them by falling on his face before them in tribute to God.

The no-fault scenario. We're here. Thrown into this place - we don't really know why. One man's bread is another man's poison. Of course we're to accept everything and we're to have all those qualities you list above.
But are we to depend on God at all then? Is this an open theocracy, a closed theocracy? Is God following us? Does He care for us? Or did He just put us here and leave? We're taught that God is a personal God. Life would seem unbearable were it not so. I feel like you're saying He left us... If you believe there's a grand scheme, as you said you do, then everything must have a reason, leading to some goal.

As far as free will. I've always said I have difficulty reconciling God's Providence or Sovereignty with our free will. I make no secret about it. You can't, though, change the meaning of free will - otherwise how is a conversation to continue? Free will. Will is a noun. Free is an adjective, The Will is Free. A free will offering. I make the offering of my own free will - no one is forcing me. Some offerings can be forced. As in paying for something so a profit could be made, but no taxes can be paid, so it's called an offering but payment is expected.

So we have this Will. Is it Free? I think it is, it certainly seems so. it seems to me that I'm making my choice of my own free will with no intervention by God. But is this true? If He has a grand scheme, don't I have to adhere to it? Let me ask you this: Did Mary have free will in saying "YES" to bearing the Son of God? Could she have said "no"? I think it's a lot more complicated than we care to imagine.

Yes, we are on the same page. The above scripture is showing that mercy and understanding are required, and that we are judged according to what measure we judge. The lie is still at work, for in as much as any person believes that Adam and Eve were not innocently duped by the serpent, and therefore are knowing and deliberate participants in calling God a liar, so also do they reveal their own lack of faith. For in our judgments of others, we project who we are. Romans 2:1.

Romans 2:1 Whether we do the same things or not is irrelevant - we do SOME things and to God it's all the same. Paul said if we fail to keep all the commandments, we've broken them all.
BTW, I'm not clear on what you call "the lie". I had said that I thought it was when the serpent said "you shall surely not die" but you didn't confirm if this is what you believe to be the lie. IOW, the lie was saying that GOD is the liar.

I would have said that God created flesh beings to reveal unthankfulness inherent in the creation through an ignorance of Who God is. If you're getting what I am saying, then you would understand why God gave men hunger, so that men would be thankful to God for their food.
You could probably also see why this testimony of the Holy Spirit is being played out in a temporal existence.
The glory that God reveals, moves a person to worship so that they cannot help but do so. The thankfulness God gives us, to give to Him is not one that patronizes Him, but is sincere and from the heart without pretense. We are even thankful to be thankful. God's need for glory is the same as our need to see it. Because Whoever Knows His Maker in Truth, knows his self. Whoever glorifies their Maker, glorifies their self whom the Maker has made. Beauty is not beauty if not seen and appreciated. God not only wants us to see so as to appreciate His glory, but also share in it as His children.

Love is simple and yet Eternal and unfathomable. God has created out of an unfair yet no blame scenario, the beginnings of what may be a perpetual epiphany. Such is His Glory.

We have to part ways a bit here. I have to feel hunger to be thankful for food? Isn't this making God small?
He, the Almighty Creator of the Universe and all in it, couldn't figure out a better way to make me be thankful? He couldn't put this into my DNA? How do I share in His glory if life is so difficult? No. I think there are other powers at work. I see all a little differently than you do, I think. Maybe you could expound on perpetual epiphany. A manifestation, something we see.

W

 

[Malachi]

My issue is with the noun freewill and it's implications. I don't believe we are self determined in the moral purview.

Not sure what you mean by "self determined in the moral purview".
1, All human beings are sinner in need of a Savior.
2. All human beings have a God-given conscience to choose to do right or wrong.
3. All human beings make moral and spiritual choices. Were this not true, Joshua could not have presented moral and spiritual choices to Israel (Josh 24:15-17):
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

 

[childeye]

Not sure what you mean by "self determined in the moral purview".

By moral purview, I mean strictly those choices that are moral choices, that pertain to how we treat our fellow man. By self determined, I offer this:
noun
1.
determination by one self or itself, with out outside influence. Compare with:
free will
noun

1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
   synonyms: self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence

1, All human beings are sinner in need of a Savior.

This is absolutely true. Which is why apart from the Christ's substitutionary death there is no remission of sins. We cannot simply decide not to have sin, which elsewhere Jesus equated with sickness. We must believe in Christ unto righteousness so as to be healed. And God should be thanked that we have obeyed the Gospel. Romans 6:17.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

In anticipation that you might say that we can choose to believe, I would respond by saying this. One must have faith to believe. I submit that once the Gospel is presented, a person will either be able to believe or they won't be able to. To establish the existence of a free will that is autonomous in this particular instance, the will must be capable of both believing and not believing as it's own prerogative. We know that no one can call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit. That is why we confess Jesus as Lord, rather than decide He is Lord. I would describe this confessing as agreeing with someone else (The Holy Spirit), or conceding to that which is revealed, as being true. We don't volunteer to believe.

2. All human beings have a God-given conscience to choose to do right or wrong.

The conscience is an interesting subject. People have their differing views of when the conscience first appeared or was activated, and how it works. I have my own views. But here's something to think about. The conscience cannot be used to establish that every man freely chooses knowingly between right and wrong. Why? Because a defiled conscience is a corrupted conscience, or an impure heart/mind.
Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

3. All human beings make moral and spiritual choices. Were this not true, Joshua could not have presented moral and spiritual choices to Israel (Josh 24:15-17):
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

Two things I would ask you to seriously consider.
1) Respectfully, you are conflating choice/option with choice/decision. Just because there are choices available to choose from, doesn't establish proof of free will.
2) Joshua is saying that only those with a corrupt mind and heart will even consider this choice in the first place. Notice how it begins: "And if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord ".

For what it's worth, I think this post is much deeper than the prior posts I have responded to.

 

[Hospes]

...2. All human beings have a God-given conscience to choose to do right or wrong.
3. All human beings make moral and spiritual choices. Were this not true, Joshua could not have presented moral and spiritual choices to Israel (Josh 24:15-17)

God does give choices, but he also gives people the heart - i.e. motivation - to choose good. Without the motivation, we will always choose not-good. Note following passage:

So the couriers went from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them. However, some men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD. (2 Chronicles 30:10-12 ESV)​

God gave the command and he gave "them one heart to do" his commands.

Augustine had it right: "O Lord, command what you will and give what you command."

 

[childeye]

Okay, We agree on the interpretive meaning of vanity. Many take God for granted -not undersatanding what He did for us.

I agree, but respectfully, this is how I would say it. We all take God for granted in unthankfulness, not understanding what He has given us, nor what He has spared us, nor Who He is as a Person.

I'd say we're a sinful bunch. I know beauty is only sin deep, but I'd rather be pretty than not pretty. Even though I don't think I'm worth anything more. The worth is something internal. Are we worth anything at all beyond the purpose God might have for us? Maybe accepting our worth in HIS purpose is what could keep us joyful and satisfied. I'm the least satisified when I'm trying to achieve my own goals - far from what God wants me to do at any given point. For instance if I leave my family to go to bible study instead of staying home and being with them because of some need. So staying home is the right choice sometimes even if I love bible study. It's God's purpose we should follow, not our own.

Again, agreement.

Of course, dragging myself down could be vanity too. "Look how lowly I am - I must be worth more in God's eyes".
Yes. Persons like this have bothered me. God demands that I be joyful - it's also a method of combating the evil one who wants us to be lowly or feel lowly. A healthy "keeping the head high" is, I think, what God would want.
To be thankful is to be happy for what you have and to show that happiness. And, when circumstances make it difficult to show happiness, at least we could show joy in knowing the Lord.

To be thankful in tough situations is difficult. It requires faith to remain thankful when things look dire. Those who suffer the most are the lowly in this world, yet they have the greater quality of faith. Thus we should rather suffer trials and tribulations, than be comfortable in this world.

The no-fault scenario. We're here. Thrown into this place - we don't really know why. One man's bread is another man's poison. Of course we're to accept everything and we're to have all those qualities you list above.
But are we to depend on God at all then?

The enmity planted by Satan is between mankind and God. It's the same enmity that the Christ and the Spirit of Christ working in mankind, does destroy. The enmity exists through the opportunity that the no fault scenario makes available. God let's us know why this all happens in due time, and in certain degrees as He sees fit. The qualities that I speak of, mercy, understanding, patience and empathy, we depend utterly upon God for. They are the fruits of His Spirit, which we will abound in even as much as we become thankful for them.

Is this an open theocracy, a closed theocracy?

There is One God and He is Love. The terms open and closed can be taken to mean several things, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I will say, that to serve God is also to be served by God. Whoever serves God is doing the best for their own selves.

Is God following us? Does He care for us? Or did He just put us here and leave? We're taught that God is a personal God. Life would seem unbearable were it not so. I feel like you're saying He left us... If you believe there's a grand scheme, as you said you do, then everything must have a reason, leading to some goal.

God definitely cares for us as the cross makes clear. God is personal in the most intimate of ways, since His Word is our life and light from our creation. I don't know what I have said that comes across as saying that God left us. I don't feel that way in the least. Everything does have a reason, and there is a goal that is God's purpose which He accomplishes within the dispensation of time.

When I think of God's sovereignty, I think of His Spirit that is Eternal. I know that Love is the prerequisite for goodness. So apart from God there is no goodness. Hence He holds all substantive power within Himself, and shares it according to His grace. To count sinful desire as our freedom, is to mistake corruption for free will

So we have this Will. Is it Free? I think it is, it certainly seems so. it seems to me that I'm making my choice of my own free will with no intervention by God. But is this true? If He has a grand scheme, don't I have to adhere to it? Let me ask you this: Did Mary have free will in saying "YES" to bearing the Son of God? Could she have said "no"? I think it's a lot more complicated than we care to imagine.

I don't believe Mary could have said no, but only because she would not will to. The will not only implies the ability to reason and decide, but it also implies desire. The term free can only derive it's meaning from what it is free of. When free will is used in the moral sense, it then becomes an equivocation where it is allegedly free from two contrary powers of Light and dark. Thus instead of the will being free from one power, it gets it's meaning from being free from two separate and opposing powers. This makes the term free will an obfuscation in reasoning. Smaller has posted some very good points concerning this. He refuses to regard, in his reasoning, any sinful desire as a form of freedom. I agree with that, since the term 'free' usually brings to mind a positive inference, which should not be associated with sin.

Therefore I believe we have a will that morally/immorally desires and chooses according to one's knowledge and ignorance of Eternal Truth. I believe some choices are voluntary choices and therefore there is a free will in those choices. But I don't see any voluntary choices made when it comes to how we treat each other.

Romans 2:1 Whether we do the same things or not is irrelevant - we do SOME things and to God it's all the same. Paul said if we fail to keep all the commandments, we've broken them all.

This is a profound reasoning. Perhaps when sin entered into mankind, some offspring received more than others. Cain and Abel comes to mind.

BTW, I'm not clear on what you call "the lie". I had said that I thought it was when the serpent said "you shall surely not die" but you didn't confirm if this is what you believe to be the lie. IOW, the lie was saying that GOD is the liar.

Yes the lie is, fundamentally, that God is a liar. But also, it was said that God didn't want us to possess the knowledge of good and evil lest we become like Him. It is a reason for lying, that sounds like God was trying to keep us down. This presents God as a tyrant and His seat as something not desired to be under. It's like the devil was our friendly co-created being, trying to help us escape our ignorance of what a lowly station God had given us. In the lie is the same vanity we have spoken of. And where there is vanity, sin and iniquity follow.

We have to part ways a bit here. I have to feel hunger to be thankful for food? Isn't this making God small?

On the contrary it makes God everything. How would I be thankful for food without knowing hunger? How could I appreciate my health without ever knowing sickness? How do I appreciate wisdom without having been a fool? As created beings we take what God gives for granted, and the result is that we don't esteem God as God.

He, the Almighty Creator of the Universe and all in it, couldn't figure out a better way to make me be thankful?

Can you think of a better way? We were in paradise where we knew only good, but we didn't know that we knew only good. Now we experience good and evil, which God did not want us to have to experience.

He couldn't put this into my DNA?

It is happening as we speak, but how do we not take it for granted in vanity?

How do I share in His glory if life is so difficult?

His glory is a Light that can only be appreciated in contrast to darkness. The more we suffer for the sake of others, the more we share in His glory. That's why those forgiven much love much and those forgiven little, love little. Life is difficult for some and even more difficult for others, but in Christ we must each carry a cross by the strength that is comprised of faith, hope, and Love.

No. I think there are other powers at work.

God says He forms the Light and creates darkness. Those are the powers.

I see all a little differently than you do, I think.

We both believe in the cross of Christ, where God partook of flesh and blood, and suffered in this world of sin, just as we do and even more so. I can't imagine what we see differently.

Maybe you could expound on perpetual epiphany. A manifestation, something we see.

The epiphany is the knowledge of God. Christ is the seed of the epiphany. It is eternal life when planted in a fertile heart. The epiphany is discovering forever, newer and greater things in the knowledge of Who God is. Therefore in 'past tense', we have suffered and tasted death and corruption, so that we may be fertile hearts made capable to truly appreciate life, so as to know and partake in what is His purity, in sincere thankfulness and true worship towards God, who shares abundantly with us, in all things.. In short we are forever going to be experiencing new and better things. The first manifestation is a sincere Love that would suffer and die in the place of sinners who had betrayed that Love.

 

[childeye]

God does give choices, but he also gives people the heart - i.e. motivation - to choose good. Without the motivation, we will always choose not-good. Note following passage:

So the couriers went from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them. However, some men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD. (2 Chronicles 30:10-12 ESV)​

God gave the command and he gave "them one heart to do" his commands.

Augustine had it right: "O Lord, command what you will and give what you command."

A good commentary on what righteousness by grace through faith is.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree, but respectfully, this is how I would say it. We all take God for granted in unthankfulness, not understanding what He has given us, nor what He has spared us, nor Who He is as a Person.

Hi Childeye
I wanted to take some time with this because there's so much so I fear I put off answering you. Sorry.
I agree. I don't think we could fully understand what God has done for us. I used to tell the kids I taught that it was as if one of us became an ant to show them how not to walk into a danger zone that we could see but they could not.
What He has spared us: Ditto
Who He is as a person. We try. But Jesus was perfect. We never met anyone like that. I often think of the charisma He must have had. He split time in half.

Again, agreement.
To be thankful in tough situations is difficult. It requires faith to remain thankful when things look dire. Those who suffer the most are the lowly in this world, yet they have the greater quality of faith. Thus we should rather suffer trials and tribulations, than be comfortable in this world.

When I disagree with this it always gets me into a bit of trouble. It sounds like: Mathew 20:16 The first shall be last and the last shall be first (or close to that). But I have to be honest. When all was going well, I felt closer to God. I was happier. I felt like He was taking care of me. How could you rather suffer tribulations? I think all things could work out for the believer and all situations could have an element of good in them, Romans 8:28
But, honestly, I'd rather be comfortable than suffer the tribulation. But when it comes we have to accept it, don't we?

Some will say that it's our free will choices that cause tribulation. How could anyone say this? Does nature not also affect us? How do I have any choice over that?? Does not all nature wait to be released from the bondage of sin that entered the world? Romans 8:19.22

Romans 8:18 is very beautiful to read. But we're here on this earth and the sufferings are felt. I must say, however, that whatever happens, somehow the joy of knowing the Lord is always with me.

PART I

 

[GodsGrace]

PART II

The enmity planted by Satan is between mankind and God. It's the same enmity that the Christ and the Spirit of Christ working in mankind, does destroy. The enmity exists through the opportunity that the no fault scenario makes available. God let's us know why this all happens in due time, and in certain degrees as He sees fit. The qualities that I speak of, mercy, understanding, patience and empathy, we depend utterly upon God for. They are the fruits of His Spirit, which we will abound in even as much as we become thankful for them.
There is One God and He is Love. The terms open and closed can be taken to mean several things, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I will say, that to serve God is also to be served by God. Whoever serves God is doing the best for their own selves. God definitely cares for us as the cross makes clear. God is personal in the most intimate of ways, since His Word is our life and light from our creation. I don't know what I have said that comes across as saying that God left us. I don't feel that way in the least. Everything does have a reason, and there is a goal that is God's purpose which He accomplishes within the dispensation of time.

I agree with all. The underlined and highlighted is true to my experience. Sometimes you'll look back and understand why God allowed a rough time. It takes a lot of time though, and a lot of listening. Sometimes He'll tell us things, sometimes He won't. I certainly don't think you believe God left you. I must have worded something incorrectly. I might have been just asking if you believed in an open or closed theism - but it's plain from your statement above that it would be open. We have free will and God can adjust but in the end His goal will be accomplished.

When I think of God's sovereignty, I think of His Spirit that is Eternal. I know that Love is the prerequisite for goodness. So apart from God there is no goodness. Hence He holds all substantive power within Himself, and shares it according to His grace. To count sinful desire as our freedom, is to mistake corruption for free will

I used to know a priest who said that to serve God is the only true freedom. His concepts were so deep I often couldn't understand him. I think because God WANTS us to be free. Satan doesn't. He wants to keep us under the bondage of sin. The bondage that ruins lives. Satan makes the good look bad, and the bad look good. God has the truth. The good looks good and the bad looks bad.

Re the sovereignty of God. Will it upset you if I say that God allows evil? It bothers many but it's the truth. How else could it be. Does God cause the evil? No. But He certainly allows it. For whatever reason - one I will never understand. As you said, there is one God and He is love. So we must hang on to that - no matter what befalls us.

I don't believe Mary could have said no, but only because she would not will to. The will not only implies the ability to reason and decide, but it also implies desire. The term free can only derive it's meaning from what it is free of. When free will is used in the moral sense, it then becomes an equivocation where it is allegedly free from two contrary powers of Light and dark. Thus instead of the will being free from one power, it gets it's meaning from being free from two separate and opposing powers. This makes the term free will an obfuscation in reasoning. Smaller has posted some very good points concerning this. He refuses to regard, in his reasoning, any sinful desire as a form of freedom. I agree with that, since the term 'free' usually brings to mind a positive inference, which should not be associated with sin.

I agree about Mary. Her yes was wonderful, but she had to say yes.
I agree to everything else. I also agree with the poster you've mentioned but I do think that poster dwells on the darkness of man's nature too much and it detracts from the glory we can see in God. The light, the beauty, the good. Any sinful desire is certainly not a form of freedom. Sin does not make you free - it intagles you - as I explained above. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. " NASB
John 8:31-32

Therefore I believe we have a will that morally/immorally desires and chooses according to one's knowledge and ignorance of Eternal Truth. I believe some choices are voluntary choices and therefore there is a free will in those choices. But I don't see any voluntary choices made when it comes to how we treat each other.

Why not? Am I not choosing to treat you kindly and with respect?
Maybe we haven't "evolved" enough? You know, the Utopian Concept. I think this is what it's called, can't remember. We keep getting better and better until we're perfect and then the end comes. I don't agree with this.
Our nature has not changed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Part III

This is a profound reasoning. Perhaps when sin entered into mankind, some offspring received more than others. Cain and Abel comes to mind.
Yes the lie is, fundamentally, that God is a liar. But also, it was said that God didn't want us to possess the knowledge of good and evil lest we become like Him. It is a reason for lying, that sounds like God was trying to keep us down. This presents God as a tyrant and His seat as something not desired to be under. It's like the devil was our friendly co-created being, trying to help us escape our ignorance of what a lowly station God had given us. In the lie is the same vanity we have spoken of. And where there is vanity, sin and iniquity follow.

God as tyrant
instead of
God as our helper
Very good. Good point. Satan does NOT want us to trust God. The mistrust was planted in us from him from the beginning.

On the contrary it makes God everything. How would I be thankful for food without knowing hunger? How could I appreciate my health without ever knowing sickness? How do I appreciate wisdom without having been a fool? As created beings we take what God gives for granted, and the result is that we don't esteem God as God.
Can you think of a better way? We were in paradise where we knew only good, but we didn't know that we knew only good. Now we experience good and evil, which God did not want us to have to experience. It is happening as we speak, but how do we not take it for granted in vanity? His glory is a Light that can only be appreciated in contrast to darkness. The more we suffer for the sake of others, the more we share in His glory. That's why those forgiven much love much and those forgiven little, love little. Life is difficult for some and even more difficult for others, but in Christ we must each carry a cross by the strength that is comprised of faith, hope, and Love. God says He forms the Light and creates darkness. Those are the powers. We both believe in the cross of Christ, where God partook of flesh and blood, and suffered in this world of sin, just as we do and even more so. I can't imagine what we see differently.

Here we get back to my tribulation idea. I understand everything you're saying about not knowing good if you don't have the bad. You say the more we suffer for the sake of others... And also your next sentence. Okay. I agree with that 100%. I'm willing to suffer for the sake of others - if one has a family, they go through this type of suffering every day! I'm talking about tribulation type suffering when I say I'd rather avoid it. Maybe this is our misunderstanding - we're talking about two different types of heavy yokes.

The epiphany is the knowledge of God. Christ is the seed of the epiphany. It is eternal life when planted in a fertile heart. The epiphany is discovering forever, newer and greater things in the knowledge of Who God is. Therefore in 'past tense', we have suffered and tasted death and corruption, so that we may be fertile hearts made capable to truly appreciate life, so as to know and partake in what is His purity, in sincere thankfulness and true worship towards God, who shares abundantly with us, in all things.. In short we are forever going to be experiencing new and better things. The first manifestation is a sincere Love that would suffer and die in the place of sinners who had betrayed that Love.

Nice. You have a way with words...
I felt all of the above when things were well. I still know it could be worse - I could not have known God.

Thanks for this great conversation!

Wondering

 

[childeye]

I used to know a priest who said that to serve God is the only true freedom.

I am confident that any person that says this, would also understand why I claim that free will, in the moral/immoral purview, is an equivocation. There is only one true freedom, not two. The other freedom that freewill implies is not really freedom at all.

I think because God WANTS us to be free. Satan doesn't. He wants to keep us under the bondage of sin. The bondage that ruins lives. Satan makes the good look bad, and the bad look good.

Well said, and here is my concern. The term free is subjective. To me, Satan describes being free as being able to make our own choices, and determine our own directions independent from God, so as to be our own masters. (See the prodigal son). This is what I feel is presented in the temptation, that this is what the knowledge of good and evil would enable mankind to do. Satan therefore counts sin as our freewill choice, since anything that is not God's will, is our own free will, free from God.

God however counts sin as corruption and not free will. This corruption comes from not wanting God to determine for us, what is best for us, which can only be built upon a distrust of God. Surely God wants us to be free. But in the truest sense, we already were free when He created us in His own Image before being corrupted. In Christ we are on our way back to discovering that same form of freedom. So the term free is subjective, and useful in deception and temptation. God would not want to leave us free to hurt ourselves, and free to hurt one another in blind servitude to a vanity that is not Godliness. The fact is that there exist higher powers over us in the moral immoral purview. Thus, politics are inevitable. So as to say, that it is better to be a slave under God, than free under the devil. Or if you prefer, free under God than a slave under the devil.

Re the sovereignty of God. Will it upset you if I say that God allows evil? It bothers many but it's the truth. How else could it be. Does God cause the evil? No. But He certainly allows it. For whatever reason - one I will never understand. As you said, there is one God and He is love. So we must hang on to that - no matter what befalls us.

God does allow evil for a time and for a purpose that serves His ends.

Why not? Am I not choosing to treat you kindly and with respect?

My answer: No, you're not choosing to treat me kindly and with respect. You're simply a kind and respectful person who owing to sanity, wills to treat others as you would want to be treated. If you could just as easily volunteer to treat me with unkindness and disrespect, then any decision to treat me with kindness and respect would be purely patronizing and pretentious. On the other hand, if I had said something to lose your respect, and you let me know it with some words that could be misconstrued as unkind, then I'd argue that you didn't volunteer to be disrespectful and unkind.

Maybe we haven't "evolved" enough? You know, the Utopian Concept. I think this is what it's called, can't remember. We keep getting better and better until we're perfect and then the end comes. I don't agree with this.
Our nature has not changed.

There was a fall from Grace, and sin is the proof of it. But if sin is voluntary, then there was no fall and there was no Grace.

 

[Cygnus]

Joining late here...
Free-will...
Concerning salvation, God choose me. I didn't choose God.
What shirt to wear? My choice.

 

[RevSRE]

We at times spend so much of our discussion on "Popular social issues" we miss the point all together. Sin is the result of a person REJECTING GOD!!" Stop and think clearly YOU do not go to HELL for sinning. YOU go to HELL for rejecting God, Sin is only the result of the natural man living the way he wants too. Ps. 14 1 "The Fool has said..." AND You do not go to HEAVEN for NOT SINNING,( the best, most moral, kind,loving, helpful GOOD person must accept Jesus) YOU go to Heaven for accepting God, Grace,and Jesus. and LIVING FOR GOD. The point is not what sin can I do and still be a christian. Remember the Song. Oh, soul are you weary and troubled, No light in the darkness you see. There is light for a look at the savior and Life more abundant and free. Turn your eye's upon JESUS. Look full in HIS wonderful face. And the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace.

The problem here and with most of these discussions is that we get to involved in the details and sin, what is sin, how much do I have Etc.
When we solve the problem be Looking into the blessed Masters Face and only see a future there in Him obedient to Him.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Please do not so focus on SIN, there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, BECAUSE GOD WILL NOT CONDEMN US FOR WHAT JESUS HAS ALREADY PAID. Instead live in Christ and overcome the world and sin. Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. In Christ we can over come all this world. WE DO NOT have to live in sin all tangled up in choice, will, HE, me, who; it does not matter.
It is a vain discussion of the meaningless. BUT LIVE IN JESUS CHRIST MY ALL IN ALL!

 

[childeye]

We at times spend so much of our discussion on "Popular social issues" we miss the point all together. Sin is the result of a person REJECTING GOD!!" Stop and think clearly YOU do not go to HELL for sinning. YOU go to HELL for rejecting God, Sin is only the result of the natural man living the way he wants too. Ps. 14 1 "The Fool has said..." AND You do not go to HEAVEN for NOT SINNING,( the best, most moral, kind,loving, helpful GOOD person must accept Jesus) YOU go to Heaven for accepting God, Grace,and Jesus. and LIVING FOR GOD. The point is not what sin can I do and still be a christian. Remember the Song. Oh, soul are you weary and troubled, No light in the darkness you see. There is light for a look at the savior and Life more abundant and free. Turn your eye's upon JESUS. Look full in HIS wonderful face. And the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace.

The problem here and with most of these discussions is that we get to involved in the details and sin, what is sin, how much do I have Etc.
When we solve the problem be Looking into the blessed Masters Face and only see a future there in Him obedient to Him.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Please do not so focus on SIN, there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, BECAUSE GOD WILL NOT CONDEMN US FOR WHAT JESUS HAS ALREADY PAID. Instead live in Christ and overcome the world and sin. Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. In Christ we can over come all this world. WE DO NOT have to live in sin all tangled up in choice, will, HE, me, who; it does not matter.
It is a vain discussion of the meaningless. BUT LIVE IN JESUS CHRIST MY ALL IN ALL!

For what it's worth, I like this line: WE DO NOT have to live in sin all tangled up in choice,
Sin is rejecting God, but the issue with sin isn't about choice, but deeper than that, and all about faith. Faith is not a vain discussion, choice is.

 

[RevSRE]

Sin is rejecting God, but the issue with sin isn't about choice, but deeper than that, and all about faith. Faith is not a vain discussion, choice is.

I totally agree, That is what I was trying to say. The vain discussion is NOT ABOUT FAITH, it is all the tangle of all the small points of "you must have" why debate the small stuff so focused on SIN that we cant see the wonder of the FACE OF JESUS. Faith in Jesus is the only valid discussion. YES IT IS DEEPER THAN THAT, LETS HAVE A DEEPER DISCUSSION OF LIVING IN JESUS

 

[Malachi]

Concerning salvation, God choose me. I didn't choose God.

If that is really the case, then God would choose every sinner, since He desires all men to repent, be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth (Rev 22:17).

 

[childeye]

I totally agree, That is what I was trying to say. The vain discussion is NOT ABOUT FAITH, it is all the tangle of all the small points of "you must have" why debate the small stuff so focused on SIN that we cant see the wonder of the FACE OF JESUS. Faith in Jesus is the only valid discussion. YES IT IS DEEPER THAN THAT, LETS HAVE A DEEPER DISCUSSION OF LIVING IN JESUS

We may or may not agree on what is substantive as pertains to faith. It is difficult to establish what is eternal without regards to what is vanity.

So please pardon me if I answer your rhetorical question, "why debate the small stuff so focused on SIN that we cant see the wonder of the FACE OF JESUS?"

From the point of view of a tare planted by God's enemy, it would be desirous to not be found. It therefore makes perfect sense to promote obscurity for the proposed purpose of the tare. While from the point of view of the wheat planted by God, it would be desirous to be found, and therefore clarity is not the enemy.

We are dealing with a semantic dilemma. For it is not my intention to make naked the sins of others, however I do wish to acknowledge my own nakedness without pretense. Having said that, I must add that, I'm also not interested in concealing the source of sin, so as to claim I am focused only on the Christ. For I find that focusing on the Christ, uncovers the source of my sin, while also providing a cover for my sin. And that covering comes only as I do not hold others in contempt for their sin.

Hence freewill becomes an issue when sin is deemed voluntary and deliberate, and contemptible. As you say, there is now no condemnation in Christ. I'm just discussing why it is, and how it is that way in Christ, and why it is not that way outside of Christ.

 

[RevSRE]

I'm just discussing why it is,

I agree. I just like to dwell on the Majesty and Glory of God, and forgiven in Christ the Debt paid, Try to live my life to OVER COME SIN and live for CHRIST.

 

[smaller]

The quest to make our flesh sinless is vain. It will never happen and can not happen.

It is exactly on the ground of that fact that we are to EVER PRESS into Gods Mercy in Christ, always needed because of sin dwelling in our flesh and evil present with us, in our flesh.

Paul didn't run away from the fact of being a sinner. He based our needs of Christ's MERCY on that ground and dragged his own flesh in the opposite direction, that of being the chief of sinners, AFTER salvation. He literally GLORIED in the weakness of his own flesh. 1 Tim. 1:15, knowing that the POWER of God resides upon the poor and the needy and the WEAK.

That would be us in our sinful flesh.

As to all this woohaa about freewill choice, there is no choices of any sort that will bring the flesh into the state of sinlessness. That simply will not and can not happen. It is the deceit of the flesh that puts such things into believers minds.

For unbelievers, we understand that they are blinded in their minds by the "god of this world." Did they have a 'choice' in that blinding? Never. God made it so. And it is God in Christ who calls us out of that sight of spiritual blindness imposed by our spiritual adversary. 2 Cor. 4:4 and Acts 26:18 both point directly to the power of Satan, the power of darkness that is upon all unbelievers. People who think they are free to unbind the adversary are spitting in the wind.

It is not the will of the fish to be caught, but the Will of the Fisherman. We can witness til we are red in the face, and if God wills NOT to pull back that blinding power of the adversary on the mind of the unbeliever, it will not and can not happen.

In faith, we are to love the captive regardless, and condemn the CAPTOR. That is the message and the witness of the Gospel.

And we make the same practice among ourselves, even upon our own selves.

 

[Jim Parker]

Paul didn't run away from the fact of being a sinner. He based our needs of Christ's MERCY on that ground and dragged his own flesh in the opposite direction, that of being the chief of sinners, AFTER salvation. He literally GLORIED in the weakness of his own flesh. 1 Tim. 1:15,

(sigh)
That wasn't "glorying" in the weakness of his own flesh.
That was Paul stating the fact, in great humility, that he was a sinner who had participated in the persecution and murder of believers.

As to all this woohaa about freewill choice, there is no choices of any sort that will bring the flesh into the state of sinlessness. That simply will not and can not happen.

That is true.
It is also true that we are to strive to subdue the lusts of the flesh and pursue holiness.
Heb 12:14 (RSV) Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
We have to make the free will choice to strive. It's not automatic.
Rom 8:12-13 (RSV) So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.
Each of us has to put to death the deeds of the flesh. The Spirit will give us the power to overcome but we have to make the free will choice to put to death the deeds of the flesh.
It's not "whoohaa". It's God's will for you.

 

[Malachi]

The quest to make our flesh sinless is vain. It will never happen and can not happen.

Who said you had to make your flesh sinless? You are to put your flesh to death -- "crucify the flesh" -- and then walk in the Spirit. Big difference. It appears from your posts that you are obsessed with the flesh. That too is from the flesh.