Well, you mention that not even believers can sometimes see this. One doesn't need to be smart to believe in Love when they see it. I think a lot of it is that the term freewill as a noun is subjective and essentially becomes an equivocation..The fact that you, I, and whoever sees, makes us the one's who will be judged the more severely. Something to think about so as to not get all puffed up about it.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study Free will
- Thread starter Corn Pop
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smaller
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I'd like to think I'm well versed in self abasement. And it's not because I wanted to be.
I'm whipping myself this very moment for laughing at you.I'd like to think I'm well versed in self abasement. And it's not because I wanted to be.
smaller
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There is a little known Spiritual Principle that IS a reality in these matters. I was dragged into it, kicking and screaming, but nevertheless, in the end, I saw that I can't fight my Maker.
In Gods Ways, the path downward is the path UPward. And yes, it is very much the opposite sight of the world. I started my believing life in phase I below, but ended up quite solidly in phase II.
"for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Believers in general are not used to applying "hatred" to "self."
Ecclesiastes 2:
16 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
18 Yea, I hated all my labour which I had taken under the sun: because I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me.
The Wisdom of Solomon does show that the wise and the fool are quite solidly bound together. Same with the rich and the poor, the strong and the weak, the wicked and the just. But our own self righteousness gets so used to only accumulating all and only the GOOD PARTS and NEVER the adverse parts of scripture, we become blinded to the obvious, when engaging such fallacies.
John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Oh, look, eternal life was hidden behind hatred of self! Who would have seen it? Nobody, because it was put in a place that nobody cares to LOOK!
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
For the most part, believers who claim freewill seem to be rather in love with their supposed abilities to make GOOD choices to "get the rewards."
IF there is such a notion, I'd hate it, regardless, on the basis above.
Freewill is mentioned 17 times 16 of those are freewill offerings this is the only verse with out the word offerings
Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
This is why I say that the false image of God is seen at the top, as the boss of all, while the True Image of God is at the bottom upholding all things, and is the servant of all.
smaller
Member
I wouldn't pray what happened to Job on anyone.
Nevertheless Job does show us some facts on HOW God does deal with His own:
Job 30:26
When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.
This was a very "real" experienced matter for Job. I have not had that severe kind of pressure applied, but I can say it was close enough for horseshoes in my own life, also.
The prophets experienced this no differently than Job:
Jeremiah 8:15
We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble!
After entering into such chastisements and disciplines, you eventually figure out that the above, is the reality of "real faith."
Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Nevertheless Job does show us some facts on HOW God does deal with His own:
Job 30:26
When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.
This was a very "real" experienced matter for Job. I have not had that severe kind of pressure applied, but I can say it was close enough for horseshoes in my own life, also.
The prophets experienced this no differently than Job:
Jeremiah 8:15
We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble!
After entering into such chastisements and disciplines, you eventually figure out that the above, is the reality of "real faith."
Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
smaller
Member
CorrectOmundo! And tanks for adding the Norwegian accent.
Reminds me of Soooo Hiiiiigh, can't get over it. Soooo Looooow can't get under it. Soooo wiiiiide, can't get around it, you must go in through the door.
So sixteen times freewill is an adjective, and once as a verb, or adverb, but never a noun.
smaller
Member
The presumption put in play is that there was only 1 will, theirs, in operation. I can say that was never the case for any of them.
In every scriptural equation there are 3 wills in play. Gods Will, man's will and Satan's resisting will.
This is the dynamic that ALL scripture revolves around.
The 3 wills are shown here by example of parable dissections:
Mark 4:15
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
So how might we see the above example?
Gods Will is FOR the man.
Gods Will is against Satan.
Satan's will is against Gods Will and the mans will.
It's a far more accurate and far more interesting dynamic when ALL the wills are on the table for viewing.
One thing is for certain. The will of the man does NOT exist in a vacuum, void of the workings of the other 2 wills.
smaller
Member
These same 3 wills are shown here as well:
John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The will of the flesh can not and will not be favorable to the other 2 wills. Nor can the will of the flesh see another will, but it's own self interests. 2 of the parties in the equations of wills can not be seen with physical eyes.
The will of man is always and only inclined to see only his own will in play, when there are in fact 2 other wills in play.
The man can not accept this because the other 2 wills are entirely invisible to the man.
Cain was warned that there was another will that desired to pawn him. The 3 will dynamic is openly demonstrated, here, again, from the beginning. Just as the tempter willed in the Garden, to deceive:
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain's will. The Will of God. Satan's will, sin being factually, the devil's will.
It IS Satan's will to HAVE the man.
Here, again, the 3 wills, in play:
Luke 22:31
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The will of the flesh can not and will not be favorable to the other 2 wills. Nor can the will of the flesh see another will, but it's own self interests. 2 of the parties in the equations of wills can not be seen with physical eyes.
The will of man is always and only inclined to see only his own will in play, when there are in fact 2 other wills in play.
The man can not accept this because the other 2 wills are entirely invisible to the man.
Cain was warned that there was another will that desired to pawn him. The 3 will dynamic is openly demonstrated, here, again, from the beginning. Just as the tempter willed in the Garden, to deceive:
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain's will. The Will of God. Satan's will, sin being factually, the devil's will.
It IS Satan's will to HAVE the man.
Here, again, the 3 wills, in play:
Luke 22:31
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Good question. Vanity is difficult to articulate in it's implications because of semantics. But I will try to elaborate. I call vanity taking God for granted in unthankfulness. That would look like, questioning what God has made me or given me in comparison to others.
You mention pride in what we do. But do we thank God Who made us able to do the work? Do we thank Him for our being useful? Or do we congratulate ourselves while we expect the same from others? External beauty is also given and also taken away. Thus the beauty given should not be applied to one's value as a person. Beauty puffs up our carnal self esteem, while ugliness brings us low self esteem, but only if we are vain. Do we thank God for learning this? Do we realize why we experience both? Do we treat the beautiful and the ugly without prejudice? Romans 8:20.
Good word, envy. What is the opposite of envy? I think it's being thankful for what one has instead of focusing on what one does not have.
It works two ways: Things are imagined to be worse or to be better, than they really are.
The grass is greener is an illusion. Where I'm presently at, appears worse than over there, which is imagined to be better than where I'm at here.
To think more highly of myself than I ought to, is pride and vanity.That's easy to understand. But to think less of myself than I ought to, is also pride and vanity. How is that? Because I think I should be better than what I am. See Satan, wanting to be as high as God. Both take God for granted in un-thankfulness. This is a battle in the mind hidden in semantics. Because if I think more of myself than I ought to, then I should think lesser of myself, yet it is not vanity.
The main point is that, there exists a no fault scenario, wherein what is fair to one person is not fair to another, and visa versa, and yet it is no one's fault. This unfair relationship must depend upon faith, mercy and understanding. Patience and empathy also comes to mind.
Freewill doctrine exists so as to not blame God for sin. But it also exists to blame sin on man, who is made in God's Image. So either way, God gets blamed and the lie questions what is Holy either in the Maker or in what the Maker has created. This is part of the cunning of the serpents lie who sows enmity between man and God from a manufactured and imagined fault. Vanity finds fault where there is none, in unthankfulness to God. This is why freewill doctrine is vanity, when used to condemn. There was a saint who was a hermit, who upon meeting any other person, greeted them by falling on his face before them in tribute to God.
Yes, we are on the same page. The above scripture is showing that mercy and understanding are required, and that we are judged according to what measure we judge. The lie is still at work, for in as much as any person believes that Adam and Eve were not innocently duped by the serpent, and therefore are knowing and deliberate participants in calling God a liar, so also do they reveal their own lack of faith. For in our judgments of others, we project who we are. Romans 2:1.
I would have said that God created flesh beings to reveal unthankfulness inherent in the creation through an ignorance of Who God is. If you're getting what I am saying, then you would understand why God gave men hunger, so that men would be thankful to God for their food.
You could probably also see why this testimony of the Holy Spirit is being played out in a temporal existence.
The glory that God reveals, moves a person to worship so that they cannot help but do so. The thankfulness God gives us, to give to Him is not one that patronizes Him, but is sincere and from the heart without pretense. We are even thankful to be thankful. God's need for glory is the same as our need to see it. Because Whoever Knows His Maker in Truth, knows his self. Whoever glorifies their Maker, glorifies their self whom the Maker has made. Beauty is not beauty if not seen and appreciated. God not only wants us to see so as to appreciate His glory, but also share in it as His children.
Love is simple and yet Eternal and unfathomable. God has created out of an unfair yet no blame scenario, the beginnings of what may be a perpetual epiphany. Such is His Glory.
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Malachi
Member
So what? Now that you know that free will is a biblical term, you can stop claiming that there is no such thing as free will.
Malachi
Member
This is a reference to God's creation, which was corrupted by the Fall, but will be restored when the New Heavens and the New Earth are established. It has nothing to do with the discussion other than the fact that the free will of Adam and Eve brought a curse on God's perfect creation.
Strong's Concordance (2937)
ktisis: creation (the act or the product)
Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ktisis
Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)
Short Definition: creation, creature, institution
Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.
Hello Malachi. I think you're misunderstanding me. I've always known that the term freewill is in scripture as an adjective or a verb. My issue is with the noun freewill and it's implications. I don't believe we are self determined in the moral purview. Or in other words, we are sinners in need of a savior.