Bible Study Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works #1

[JLB]

So so I.
That has nothing to do with the parable being about ONLY His servants to take care of ONLY His people, who are fellow servants. (According to your post #90)
We are Christ's servants who have been given the ministry of reconciling the world to God. (2Co 5:18-21) That includes God's servants and His enemies, not just our fellow servants.

Yes we have been given the ministry of reconciliation, which is preaching the Gospel, by which those who believe are reconciled to Him.

How does this, somehow "prove" that Jesus is not the master in Matthew 24:48-51

Please explain how Jesus is not the Lord and master who is coming, in verse's 48-51, but is the Lord who is coming in previous verses?

Then explain how this master, in verses 48-51, who you claim is not a reference to the Lord Jesus, but assigns the same punishment as Him, which is: appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

What human being has the authority other than Jesus Christ, the Son of man, to pass judgement on people and assign them to this place... where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:42-51

Jesus is the master of the unfaithful servant, and sentences the unfaithful servant of His with the hypocrites. Where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus continues to explain about this in the Olivet Discourse, in His teaching about the talents:

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey... 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mathew 25:14-15, 26-34

• who called his own servants, and delivered goods to them.

• “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown...

• 29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Jesus is the One who sentences people to outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He is the master and lord in these teachings, about His servants.



JLB

 

[Born Again 2004]

Would you like to comment on our discussion and the context, of Matthew 24;45-51?

Not really, it has nothing to do with my response to salvation by Grace alone!

 

[Born Again 2004]

One very minor point; it's Satan. "Satin" is a fabric. "Satan" is the devil.
And without works, no one will be saved. James 2:14-26

1. I know who the devil is, so why point out a typing error as you are some sort of authority over me....sounds condescending !
2. Your lack of understanding of James is appalling...James is referring to the works of the Holy Spirit through you, if that is not there, your faith is false and dead.
3. God, in his Pauline Epistles, has already said it is not your works, unless you could boast!
4. You are "boasting" in yourself!

 

[JLB]

1. I know who the devil is, so why point out a typing error as you are some sort of authority over me....sounds condescending !
2. Your lack of understanding of James is appalling...James is referring to the works of the Holy Spirit through you, if that is not there, your faith is false and dead.
3. God, in his Pauline Epistles, has already said it is not your works, unless you could boast!
4. You are "boasting" in yourself!

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

Faith without works [obedience] is dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The principle by which faith operates or functions, to produce a divine result is by the corresponding act of obedience.

Without the corresponding act of obedience, faith is dead, and does not function, like a body that is dead, does not function.

It is believing and obeying together, by which salvation is obtained.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is the corresponding action of the Gospel message [Word of God], each person who is saved by faith, must obey in order for their faith, that they have when they hear the word of God [Gospel Message] to function, and produce a divine result [born again].

For you are all sons of God [born of God] through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

How does this, somehow "prove" that Jesus is not the master in Matthew 24:48-51

I didn't say it did.
I said "That has nothing to do with the parable being about ONLY His servants to take care of ONLY His people, who are fellow servants. (According to your post #90)"
I hope that helps clear up your confusion.
jim

 

[JLB]

I didn't say it did.
I said "That has nothing to do with the parable being about ONLY His servants to take care of ONLY His people, who are fellow servants. (According to your post #90)"
I hope that helps clear up your confusion.
jim

Ok great, then you understand that Jesus is the Master or Lord of the servants in the following verse's.

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:42-51

and again

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey... 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mathew 25:14-15, 26-34


JLB

 

[RevSRE]

Why is it so hard to see that this discussion is on TWO DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.
1.BEING SAVED it is by God's GRACE and our Faith. We cannot earn or deserve it it is a free gift.
BUT , THAT IS A STARTING POINT!!
Once we are "Saved" we live our lives serving God.
The two subjects are GETTING SAVED BY GRACE, and LIVING A CHRISTIAN LIFE. They are two different subjects.

The work of Jesus on the cross made a difference, we are not, cannot be, in the flesh bound to sin. Jesus changed all that!
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.
Rom 8:2 But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Grace, Faith, Indwelled, Family, Adopted, Child, Heirs, Priest, Kings, all of these names apply to a Christian and understood in order they are the story of a Christian.
The only way to be saved is by Grace, it is a free gift and available to All.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Faith is our part. Grace is offered but must become real to us accepted by us. Every thing Changes at this point.

A Christian is not a Repentant Sinner. A Christian is “Indwelled By the Holy Spirit”, Adopted into the family of God, Adopted as Sons and Daughters, Children of God, Heirs of God, Joint heirs with Christ. We are NEW CREATURES, Old things are passed away and God said forgotten, We are the temple of God indwelled by the Holy Spirit we are Priest of the Most High God with Jesus as Our High Priest. We are a Royal Priest hood and will rule with Christ in Eternity.
Now I Call that VICTORY!!

We teach that there are no works in BEING saved it is by Our Faith in God's GRACE.

The Idea of SIN being great or small, seems to me to be an inconstancy in thought. Sin is to Disobey GOD!
I ask what is there that we do that is “our SIN”. There is no work that we may do to gain, deserve, or to earn God’s Grace. I will also say there is no act or work we may do to gain, deserve, or earn rejection from grace and a place in Hell.

God’s Grace is freely offered, and we by faith accept or ignore that offer.

Once you make that choice there are requirements of LIVING A CHRISTIAN LIFE, there are clear symptoms that show from the way we live that we are saved, in CHRIST and living for Him.
AND, there are clear symptoms that one ignores or rejects God's grace and is LOST. ALL THE "SINS" we list are the symptoms of being lost and Disobeying GOD! CHRISTIANS do not LIVE in sin, yes we fail, we do things that we should not, but there is a difference in LIVING in SIN and failing as humans. Christians TRY not to sin. Some things just should not, must not, be part of out consideration, In CHRIST we do not live like that.

 

[Kidron]

Now I Call that VICTORY!!

We teach that there are no works in BEING saved it is by Our Faith in God's GRACE.
.

-
Exactly.
God SAVED Us....that is our eternal state......"SAVED."
We dont keep ourselves saved.. = GOD Already did this for us as a GIFT...(The Gift Of Righteousness).
This is what the ETERNAL Blood Atonement accomplished for us. = SAVED.

Hebrews 9:12

 

[smaller]

Not really, it has nothing to do with my response to salvation by Grace alone!

Well, in some camps it's salvation by Grace Alone, but that rather magically disappears after salvation and returns to works salvation after salvation. I just chalk it up to the flesh trying to justify itself. And seeing how the flesh is factually against and contrary to the Spirit, Gal. 5:17, it is a "natural" reaction.

 

[Kidron]

Well, in some camps it's salvation by Grace Alone, but that rather magically disappears after salvation and returns to works salvation after salvation. I just chalk it up to the flesh trying to justify itself. And seeing how the flesh is factually against and contrary to the Spirit, Gal. 5:17, it is a "natural" reaction.

-
Paul explains all this in Galatians 1-3.
He says these believers are in the "flesh".

 

[Jim Parker]

Ok great, then you understand that Jesus is the Master or Lord of the servants in the following verse's.

The "masters" in those parables are generic but they depict the relationship between all of mankind and our ultimate master, Jesus.

The teaching, of course, is that, if you call Jesus your LORD and if you want to inherit the kingdom, you must be faithful in doing the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10 RSV) We are given examples of those good works at 25:35-36: (RSV) "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me."

As God is merciful in not counting our sins against us, so those who are His children are to imitate their Father in heaven by "doing the Father's business" which is being merciful. The wise and faithful servant of God is he who keeps Jesus' commands. (Love God, Love one another, Love neighbors, love enemies) He will inherit the kingdom of God.

The foolish and unfaithful servant thinks he has it made because he calls Jesus "Lord" even though he does not do as Jesus commanded. He is self-seeking rather than loving and is indifferent to the needs of others rather than merciful. He will be cast into hell.

In your post #17 you stated, "Those who are Christ's will be resurrected as stated in Matthew 25:31-46 Those in this resurrection, will be separated one from another, as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. Both of the sheep and goats represent His servants."

I do not agree.
Mat 25:32 says that "all nations" will be gathered before Jesus for judgment, not just "his servants."
I believe you are mistaken in basing your belief in "2 resurrections" on the Rev. 20 passage.

Rev 20:6 (RSV) Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

All believers are priests of God and of Christ right now (1Pe 2:9 RSV) so they must have already shared in the first resurrection. Paul's teaching that baptism is a resurrection to new life in Christ (Ro 6:3-4) defines that "first resurrection."

Jesus is already reigning in heaven and on earth and has been for almost 2000 years. (Mat 28:18 RSV: All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.) Therefore, rather than a literal 1000 years, the ecstatic, apocalyptic vision of John rendered into human language as best as possible should be understood as "a long time."

And that's how I see it.


iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

-
Paul explains all this in Galatians 1-3.
He says these believers are in the "flesh".

Hey, thanks for using the QUOTE FEATURE!!! Very good!

Tell me what the enemies of the Gospel in Romans 11:25-32 did to be saved? I will tell you in advance, exactly nothing good. I hope you see your fellow Israelites in the same LIGHT, past and present. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt. 23:9.

 

[smaller]

As God is merciful in not counting our sins against us, so those who are His children are to imitate their Father in heaven by "doing the Father's business" which is being merciful.

But but but, what are you doing counting the sins of "not working" against them?

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[Kidron]

Tell me what the enemies of the Gospel in Romans 11:25-32 did to be saved? .

-
The easy answer is.......there is only one way to be saved. (Jesus)

The harder answer is, that , the time of the Gentiles is limited, so this limits redemption by Faith alone.
Its ends, and following, you have trouble. ....Daniel.
And then the debate starts to scream....."is the church there, or is it a Jewish thing only".
So, pick your side, on that one... and launch your scripture salvos.
However, during this trib trouble, there is a teaching that says, "Faith + Works"
It will take faith in Christ's shed blood, plus works.... exactly as in the OT, it took faith in shed blood and works.
Now, you dont have to write me your theology, as this subject is, as i said, very "interpreted", so, i'll leave it there..
This is a Hebrews 13:9 thingy, so, i dont spin a lot of energetic wheels on this topic.
It much more important to help people understand what Grace is all about, so that they can live in Joy and not in bondage.

 

[Kidron]

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

THATS IT !
Romans 4:8
Hebrews 10:17

 

[smaller]

-
The easy answer is.......there is only one way to be saved. (Jesus)

The harder answer is, that , the time of the Gentiles is limited, so this limits redemption by Faith alone.
Its ends, and following, you have trouble. ....Daniel.
And then the debate starts to scream....."is the church there, or is it a Jewish thing only".
So, pick your side, on that one... and launch your scripture salvos.
However, during this trib trouble, there is a teaching that says, "Faith + Works"
It will take faith in Christ's shed blood, plus works.... exactly as in the OT, it took faith in shed blood and works.
Now, you dont have to write me your theology, as this subject is, as i said, very "interpreted", so, i'll leave it there..
This is a Hebrews 13:9 thingy, so, i dont spin a lot of energetic wheels on this topic.
It much more important to help people understand what Grace is all about, so that they can live in Joy and not in bondage.

I appreciate the tactful avoidance of the observation for what it is.

 

[smaller]

THATS IT !
Romans 4:8
Hebrews 10:17

We seem to forget that Love never fails and we do fail. 1 Cor. 13:8.

 

[Kidron]

I appreciate the tactful avoidance of the observation for what it is.

-
I appreciate your theology on that one..
Keep in mind that you didnt learn it by opening a bible the day after you were saved, by a candle in the woods, in a cabin overlooking a river full of Trout.
The fact is, you have commentaries, and perhaps teachers, who taught you.
I think that you have commentaries on this topic, devoted to it, using the very scriptures that you will use.
Or you have a bible with "notes" that is teaching you what you are saying about this topic, as well as the commentaries.
So, If that person is right, then you are, but if they arn't, then where are you?
So, im only showing you what i know about you, and you know it also.
I think you know that the scriptures are not all literal, sometimes they are symbolic, and sometimes they are an analogy.
Sometimes they are love lyrics written by a singer singing a song to God.
Not everything is DOCTRINE DOCTRINE DOCTRINE < but everything is Light, in the bible.

 

[Kidron]

We seem to forget that Love never fails and we do fail. 1 Cor. 13:8.

-
Yes...

And the blood of Jesus never fails to keep a person saved.
It cant fail.
(God is like that.)

 

[smaller]

-
I appreciate your theology on that one..
Keep in mind that you didnt learn it by opening a bible the day after you were saved, by a candle in the woods, in a cabin overlooking a river full of Trout.
The fact is, you have commentaries, and perhaps teachers, who taught you.
I think that you have commentaries on this topic, devoted to it, using the very scriptures that you will use.
Or you have a bible with "notes" that is teaching you what you are saying about this topic, as well as the commentaries.
So, If that person is right, then you are, but if they arn't, then where are you?
So, im only showing you what i know about you, and you know it also.
I think you know that the scriptures are not all literal, sometimes they are symbolic, and sometimes they are an analogy.
Sometimes they are love lyrics written by a singer singing a song to God.
Not everything is DOCTRINE DOCTRINE DOCTRINE < but everything is Light, in the bible.

Actually most of what we need is in plain sight. We just have an uncanny knack of partial sight. I see enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel, ALL saved per Romans 11:25-32, though it did take a very very long time to actually believe it and justify it according to a number of bad doctrines that exist "in the churches" that I had to examine and get over them because I believed wrongly from those doctrines, dogma's and positions.

But if we read the simplicity of Romans 11:8, we should also be able to see that it is not an account of only Israelite unbelieving enemies of the Gospel, but of the spirit of slumber that blinded them and still does blind unbelievers. It is also at this junction that I might start "counting sins" in the appropriate direction. Reference Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 3:14, Eph. 2:2 for quick examples.

These questions are never just about "man alone" in the scriptures because man in the flesh ISN'T alone therein. Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7 resulting in Gal. 5:17 for every flesh man, NO MATTER what work any of us do.