Questions Regarding Free WIll

[Douglas Summers]

messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

There is "no longer I" revealed.

What do you think, "me, lest I", is? (me, myself and I) They are all personal...they are Paul. free will is in all of God's creation along with. In the natural man it is most often (self will). But self will is also able to learn and create. "Raise up a child the way he should go", and, "subdue the earth", The choice was for man to discover and learn.

 

[smaller]

Okay. But I did already.

Romans 8:9a (LEB) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. ​

Thus I claimed:

Pretty simple really. Paul says you are not in the flesh if the Spirit of God lives in you. The Spirit of God lives in me. Thus, I claimed I am not in the flesh any longer. Don't you agree?

I agree that Paul was honest in these depictions:

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

That is Christian reality from the mouth of an Apostle. It's also a reality that believers can't seem to be nearly as honest about.

 

[smaller]

There were those who claimed the flesh was not responsible because it could not change it's nature.

The flesh can't change it's nature. It is responsible for being against and contrary to the Spirit and The Spirit against the flesh. Gal. 5:17. It is also vile, Phil. 3:21, with sin indwelling it and evil present therein. Romans 7:17-21. This doesn't change after salvation.

This is the groundwork of salvation by Gods Grace Alone, not by works or by personal merit or by actions of freewill because obviously there are problems with man.

 

[smaller]

What do you think, "me, lest I", is? (me, myself and I) They are all personal...they are Paul.

That is not what Paul said:

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

We don't see Paul claiming no more I didn't do it (it being the actions of vs. 15&17) by his freewill. We see the opposite. That Paul did things he hated, even though he didn't want to, and that he didn't do the good he wanted to do, but rather did evil.

Romans 7:15 & 19

That is about as far away from the freewill postures that he could be.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The flesh can't change it's nature. It is responsible for being against and contrary to the Spirit and The Spirit against the flesh.

Of course he can not change his Adamic nature, but by the Spirit, he can change the deeds or the works of the flesh by the renewing of his mind and walking after the Spirit, For every man shall bear his own burden. By witness, the closer one walks after the Spirit, the less his old nature has any influence in temple of God, of which we are now. And For ALL born again believers bodies are now a temple of the Lord. All things have become new, old things are fading away.
Let me ask you smaller, has the word of God shown a light on your sole and it's dark works that you feel remorse and disgust with it's deeds, that you repent of it's influence of self and ask the Lord for forgiveness, and received the Holy Spirit to fellowship and work out your calling and election with peace and joy with the Lord? Does He rule in your life? Is He at the head of your household. Is He who you start the day out with, and also end with. Do you see this world with his eyes and heart? Do you know Him on a personal level?
My prayer and joy is that you have.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Northman]

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

That is Christian reality from the mouth of an Apostle. It's also a reality that believers can't seem to be nearly as honest about.

Are they truly not honest or were they never taught that way?

 

[JLB]

Of course he can not change his Adamic nature, but by the Spirit, he can change the deeds or the works of the flesh by the renewing of his mind and walking after the Spirit, For every man shall bear his own burden.

 

[smaller]

Of course he can not change his Adamic nature, but by the Spirit, he can change the deeds or the works of the flesh by the renewing of his mind and walking after the Spirit,

You do understand then that the flesh, which is under adverse influences inclusive of influences "in thought" is an adverse nature or opposing nature to the Spirit. This shows conflict, not freewill. This conflict is not removed after salvation nor can freewill remove this conflict.

Externally, I believe this to be true, that the deeds of the flesh, externally can be mitigated. Internally however is an entirely different matter. Paul did not land in a sinless state after salvation and for a fact by his own mouth landed in the exact opposite place, being the chief of sinners after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15. We can only harmonize this by understanding the reality of the internal conflict, in mind.

Paul defined it thusly:

Romans 7:
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is no way to "mix" these two states of our current existence. We can not justify the flesh, period, because it serves the law of sin and can not serve the law of God, but to resist the law of God. And God, by His Spirit, does also resist the flesh. These are adverse to each others regardless of external deeds being "acceptable" meaning "not in external control by the flesh's dominion." This makes our current righteousness as Isaiah put it, "filthy rags" by comparison to the righteousness of God, which we have not put on yet in "entirety."

I've used this analogy with some believers who quite falsely think that church attendance is mandatory "or else potential hell" on Saturday for example, which is an extreme form of legalism:

If a believer under such notions sits there and justifies their flesh for doing so, and in that process even THINKS about not being there in the pew, technically they have sinned in their minds and EVIL present within us has PROVEN itself to them, because the flesh is bound by God Himself, to RESIST the law, and it is compelled to insert adverse thoughts to ANY law of God. Therefore such claims are entirely a moot point. They sit there as sinners, regardless of any claims of not being a sinner. Sin dwelling in the flesh and evil present with us is NOT COOPERATIVE to God in any way, other than to FORCE us into HIS MERCY. And when they don't sit there as sinners by such notions, then they actually sit there as liars and hypocrites, justifying their sinning state in the flesh. And if they manage to buckle down their thoughts about being obedient to Saturday church attendance LAW, the flesh will simply attack their minds with another sin angle to prove it. Because God Himself, by His Spirit actively works against the flesh nature. This will FORCE this conflict to transpire internally, showing evil's presence internally, regardless of freewill.

The bottom line is the flesh is not a "freewill" nature. It is a captured nature. In our nature's, plural, we have conflicts, deceptions and various traps that will lead us into hypocrisy and lies. Which are NOT of the Spirit, but are of fleshly captivity, courtesy of our adversary.

Just because someone can decide to jump in the air, their status as a sinner in the flesh didn't change one bit nor will their decisions change it nor will their external actions change it. They will jump with sin dwelling in their flesh and evil present within them, regardless.

 

[smaller]

Are they truly not honest or were they never taught that way?

The self righteous hypocrisy of the lying state of the flesh will always lead believers to conclude, one way or another, that their flesh is not a sinner and is acceptable to God in Christ. That is not the case and never has been the case.

That is why we are saved solely solely solely by the Grace and Mercy of God in Christ through faith IN HIM. And not in ourselves and our own works.

Paul gave himself a vote of 'NO CONFIDENCE' in the flesh:

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[JLB]

You do understand then that the flesh, which is under adverse influences inclusive of influences "in thought" is an adverse nature or opposing nature to the Spirit. This shows conflict, not freewill. This conflict is not removed after salvation nor can freewill remove this conflict.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die;... Romans 8:13

It's up to each of us, to choose to either submit to and obey the sinful desires of the flesh, or put to death the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit, in order to be led by the Spirit.

but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

The condition "if" denotes our choice.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Let me ask you smaller, has the word of God shown a light on your sole and it's dark works that you feel remorse and disgust with it's deeds, that you repent of it's influence of self and ask the Lord for forgiveness, and received the Holy Spirit to fellowship and work out your calling and election with peace and joy with the Lord? Does He rule in your life? Is He at the head of your household. Is He who you start the day out with, and also end with. Do you see this world with his eyes and heart? Do you know Him on a personal level?
My prayer and joy is that you have.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

And as to your "pleading" above, I rejoice in being HONEST before my Maker, even if that entails being against my SELF.


Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I know my fellow disciples, IF they can follow Paul's footsteps into the hatred of sin indwelling their own flesh and the evil present with them. It's not a "show me how good you are" measure. It's show me how you hate your own life, so that I know you know we both are always in need of Gods Mercy in Christ Jesus.

 

[smaller]

For if you live according to the flesh you will die;... Romans 8:13

It's up to each of us, to choose to either submit to and obey the sinful desires of the flesh, or put to death the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit, in order to be led by the Spirit.

but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

The condition "if" denotes our choice.

JLB

I reject any notions that sin does not dwell in our flesh, that evil is not present with us, and that sin is not demonic. Anyone who goes against these lines of scriptural reasoning remains in darkness.

When Paul advises us to "cast off works" of darkness, that means we have such to cast off.

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

The armor of His Light is HONESTY.

 

[chessman]

Romans 7:
15 For [Therefore, conclusion drawn from the previous discussion] that which I [Paul] do I[Paul] allow not: for what I[Paul] would, that do I[Paul] not; but what I[Paul] hate, that do I[Paul].

19 For [Therefore, conclusion drawn from the previous discussion]the good that I[Paul] would I[Paul] do not: but the evil which I[Paul] would not, that I[Paul] do.

That is Christian reality from the mouth of an Apostle.

That is Paul (a coverted Law keeper) talking about himself (a former Law keeper, now turned Christian). See Romans 7:1

Romans 7:1 (LEB) Or do you not know, brothers for I am speaking to those who know the law, that the law is master of a person for as long a time as he lives?​

It's also a reality that believers can't seem to be nearly as honest about.

Were you ever under the Old Covenant/Law (i.e. a practicing Jew)?

Romans 8:9a (LEB) But you [those who are in Christ Jesus, v1] are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

Romans 8:9b (LEB) But if anyone [anyone, Jew or Gentile] does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. ​

 

[smaller]

Were you ever under the Old Covenant/Law (i.e. a practicing Jew)?

Anyone who has ever spent any serious time studying and considering Gods Laws, and how they STILL factually operate will, if they are honest within themselves, experience exactly what Paul experienced in Romans 7:7-13.

If they haven't, they are talking out of their hat on the subject of Gods Real Present fully operational Laws.

I have fellowshipped with legalists, but have never "joined" with them in their lying hypocritical conclusions. I believe there is an immense amount of Spiritual Beauty in Judaic rituals that they themselves will never see unless and until they come to know Christ.

 

[chessman]

Anyone who has ever spent any serious time studying and considering Gods Laws, and how they STILL factually operate will, if they are honest within themselves, experience exactly what Paul experienced in Romans 7:7-13.

Really? I've never (not once) struggled with an old desire to sacrifice a bull or a goat as Saul/Paul once did (etc. as part of the Old Law) for the forgiveness of my sins. But I can't speak all others.

Regardless of what you think Paul was experiencing in those verses and whether they are exactly applicable to Christians today, those verses don't say they are applicable to anyone other than whom Paul said they were (Paul). That's my point.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Romans 7:
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is no way to "mix" these two states of our current existence. We can not justify the flesh, period, because it serves the law of sin and can not serve the law of God, but to resist the law of God. And God, by His Spirit, does also resist the flesh. These are adverse to each others regardless of external deeds being "acceptable" meaning "not in external control by the flesh's dominion." This makes our current righteousness as Isaiah put it, "filthy rags" by comparison to the righteousness of God, which we have not put on yet in "entirety."

smaller, you are stuck in the flesh. I do not disagree with these Scriptures. Flesh and blood will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. You would do well to come over to the other side where THE BORN AGAIN believers flesh has died and is buried with Christ death on the Cross, And we have risen with with Christ. (dead to sin and alive to Christ). (Rom. 6:1-23) God has blotted out our sin's (past, present and future). A lot of these Scriptures are written to the deceived and self righteous, to compare the difference in change that should be as a witness in their life. A nominal christian has no understanding of Spiritual matters, for they have not the Spirit. (Rom. 8:1-39)

 

[Douglas Summers]

And as to your "pleading" above, I rejoice in being HONEST before my Maker, even if that entails being against my SELF.


Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I know my fellow disciples, IF they can follow Paul's footsteps into the hatred of sin indwelling their own flesh and the evil present with them. It's not a "show me how good you are" measure. It's show me how you hate your own life, so that I know you know we both are always in need of Gods Mercy in Christ Jesus.

Just a simple, Yes, He is lord of my life would have been fine.

 

[chessman]

Paul did not land in a sinless state after salvation and for a fact by his own mouth landed in the exact opposite place, being the chief of sinners after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15. We can only harmonize this by understanding the reality of the internal conflict, in mind.

Maybe you can only harmonize 1 Tim 1:15 that way. I harmonize it by simply reading verses 13 and 16:

1 Timothy 1:13, 16 (LEB) although I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, but I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief,
...
But because of this I was shown mercy, in order that in me foremost [the foremost sinner v15, formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a viloet man, v13], Christ Jesus might demonstrate his total patience, for an example for those who are going to believe in him for eternal life.​

 

[Douglas Summers]

How you portray "man" is not the portrayal of scripture, as shown above. Most freewillers are nearly incognizant of the will of sin and evil in the flesh. They quite falsely think "it's just I." It's not.

But it is, just not by you, What do you think about angels. Do they have free will? I'm not a freewiller under your definition.

 

[Mike]

Folks, there is sometimes a fine line between staying on topic and turning your sights square on another member. Attempting to make another member do defend his personal faith in a litmus test is a little bush league.
Speak toward the topic, not the member.