Respectfully, are you saying you have escaped the lusts of the flesh via your free will and therefore so can anyone else?
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Questions Regarding Free WIll
- Thread starter Hospes
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smaller
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Holy angels did not decide on their own, by their own freewill, to be Holy. They were made that way by God in Christ.
Evil angels did not decide on their own, by their own freewill, to be Holy. They were made that way by God in Christ.
Believers, when we depart the flesh will be 'as' angels, as meaning similar to but not exactly the same as. And we will be made that way by God in Christ, not by our own freewill. The term 'angel' for understanding means 'messenger.' The term by itself does not imply automatic Holy. There are messengers of God and there are messengers of Satan.
Mark 12:25
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Luke 20:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Philippians 3:
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
The notion that Satan and his messengers were once Holy angels who made bad/evil decisions and thereby turned into Satan and devils doesn't exist in the Bible. Jesus tells us that the devil was a murderer from the beginning. The devil did not "create" himself that way by freewill.
John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
The devil does continue to generate "his seed" which are devils, after his kind. The devil has both a family and a kingdom. None of this is visibly apparent to us because it is in a world beyond our flesh sights but it is overlapped with the flesh of man where "their works" are visibly apparent, as are their speakings, audible, in man.
Scripture does tell us how these flesh operators work. In brief, it is to resist and oppose every thing and matter of God, His Word and Spirit. Mark 4:15. If we listen closely, we'll hear their temptations, internally. They are not hard to "spot."
And if we don't we are purposefully blinded by them by Gods Allowance and intention with the flesh, Romans 11:8, falsely thinking it's just us, when it's actually as Paul described, "no longer I." Romans 7:17-21.
They can not 'hear' the Word of God. Nor can the flesh, because of their imposed blindness.
2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
The Light of Gods Words is meant to raise and uplift mankind, not harm them. But that same Word is painful for devils, who can not stand His Light and THEY are in the same location as "man's flesh."
Romans 12:20
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
If we 'hear' the Word of the Spirit above, it is not speaking of literal food/drink, neither are the coals of fire visible in the physical senses.
smaller
Member
You'll have to excuse me because I fully expect 'resistance and false accusations', such as the above, to follow where Gods Truth is proclaimed. I know it is 'no longer I' in the flesh, crying out in the above claim.
I followed Paul to his very logical conclusions. I consider stepping into Paul's shoes to be the litmus test to any follower of Jesus.
Romans 7:7-13 and Romans 7:17-21 are hard matters for the flesh to "fess up to." It can not do so. I would however speak the same things that Paul did about my own flesh or the flesh of any other person.
I know God is not the respecter of any person, because of their flesh and it's factual conditions. Paul says as much. So does Peter.
God does not have to "ask me" if I have sin indwelling my flesh, and evil present with me. All I have to say is "guilty as charged" because it's a Spiritual Fact. The flesh hates to hear this, and will always rebel from that conclusion, because it is Gods Truth. Where others fear Gods Harshest Words and Dark Judgments, I love, because I know these are directed to my adversary in the flesh.
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smaller
Member
The Law is spiritual. Romans 7:14. Those who hear the Law by their flesh ears will only see bulls, goats and don't eat shrimp and pork. It really has nothing to do with any of those matters.
There is no question that the statements Paul made about himself are facts. Whether we believe them or not is quite irrelevant to the facts of the statements. And whether we can apply the same to ourselves is not a matter of us. God in Christ has to lead a believer into honesty. If He does not it only means He has elected to engage the other side of the ledgers.
Jeremiah 13:14
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
That's not what Paul said. IF you believe Paul's words are Holy Spirit inspired writings (they are), then they are applicable to all.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Jesus said identically in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4, thereby applying EVERY WORD to us. Not just some Word, but ALL.
smaller
Member
It is quite painful for the flesh to hear the Words of God it doesn't care to hear. And it will in fact run from them or resist them in any way possible. That is what it was made by God to do.
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The flesh, by nature, rebels to "hear this."
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Believe it or not, there is LIFE in Gods Words of condemnation to indwelling sin and evil present within our flesh.
I fully expect God to be firmly against the sin indwelling my own flesh, and the evil present with me. I might expect any believer could see how this is the Way God Is.
God created evil to be against it. And He does so precisely so that "we" come to understand the Eternal Divine Vitality of HIS MERCY in Christ.
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Douglas Summers
Member
I was speaking more on those angels who left their first estate. Did they do it by own choice or will. I'm not asking because I don't know, I'm asking what you teach. I know all the Scriptures you posted and your structuring them together with the intention to explain your belief of how nothing is done by free will. I have wasted too much precious time on this distraction and I'am moving on.
Thanks
Douglas Summers
smaller
Member
We're purposefully not told about a lot of details about angels. I suspect there might be reasons we aren't. But in any case Satan was active on earth "in man" from day 1 of man. I might presume that the casting out of Satan and his messengers transpired at or before that time. Not some future date as many propose from the notation in Rev. 12:12. That "woe" began in the Garden of Eden.
I've pointed to the obvious problems with such claims, from the scriptures. I don't expect the flesh with indwelling sin and evil present, subject to temptations as it is, to understand or agree. These remain against the Spirit in any case, and not free whatsoever, as such, but under condemnation of God in Christ. Romans 7:17-21, Romans 8:3, Gal. 5:17.
I've engaged with many believers, some who might even acknowledge these facts. That is until they are led to see these realities for their own flesh. Then, invariably comes the resistance to these scriptural disclosures, exactly as scriptures propose. Mark 4:15.
I still think such will be saved regardless of such resistance. John 5:24, Romans 10:13.
Every person has the problem. Very few, even believers, will be led to see what the issues are about our flesh. No man can install scriptural honesty about the conditions of our flesh, in another person. That is a leading that has to come from God in Christ. Romans 9 tells us that God Alone elects upon whom He Will Have Mercy. Scripture also speaks to having more or less. And most of the time, for the majority, this obviously doesn't happen. Which to me serves the point of the reality of the scriptural narratives.
Matthew 13:12
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Sometimes when we think of more being given, it's not what we expected to be given. We see more than we were anticipating of the not so good kinds of disclosures. All believers like the watering hole of only the good things, and this is an inflammation of the flesh, leading them only to that and restricting all other discourses of The Word. Few are meant to engage the reality of what God has wrought on/in the earth. But there are other reasons to point out the obvious.
God does have intentions with parties on earth that are not MAN. And they will not be pleasant.
When our minds are inclined only to hear the things we like, we are not hearing much. We should be hearing all of what God has to say, and apply such things personally. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. That is Gods Way. With those who don't care to hear or listen, God is dealing with them in another manner. And there really isn't anything that can be done about it by that person.
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Douglas Summers
Member
No, I'm saying that by seeing my need for the Lord, In which God drew me to by Christ (His Word) that I converted. Converted means (to turn from your ways or to change your mind about God and man) Conversion is a human action. Then I called upon the name of the Lord and was baptized in His name.. Upon calling on the name of the Lord I was regenerated (that is an act of God). By receiving The Holy Spirit (Spirit of Christ) I escaped the lust of the flesh. The Holy Spirit is a permanent possession. Now, to say there is no battle between the flesh and the Spirit would be a lie, but as we mature in our new state in the Lord, the burden of the flesh against Spirit begins to dissipate to where it has little remembrance if any. Every born again believer will experience a change in his life upon regeneration.
chessman
Member
For Paul, a converted Jew, 'it' (his struggles with his 'flesh' as discussed throughout Romans) most certainly does have something to do with bulls, goats, shrimp, pork, AND circumcision, etc. Read Rom 2:25-29 just for one example of this principle within this Letter.
Romans 2:28-29 (LEB) For the Jew is not one outwardly, nor is circumcision outwardly, in the flesh. But the Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter, whose praise is not from people but from God.
Now you've got the fact correct (Scripturally sound I mean). Again, that was my very specific point of disagreement with your numerous postings of Romans 7:15-20. Those verses are Paul (a circumcised Jew) stating facts about himself. They are NOT Paul stating facts about you/me or anyone else. They may very well be true about you or me or everyone in general. But you've made no case for it.
I believe them (the verses).
That's correct. That Text is applicable to whom it says it was applicable to, Paul (a circumcised, formerly Jewish Law keeper). "Applying" them to ourselves is all fine and dandy. But, one should make sure they are seeing them from Paul's perspective first. He's clearly talking about how the Old Law should be viewed in light of the New Law throughout most (if not all) of Romans. Including chapter 7.
Yes it is. Please quote and underline any reference to any person other than Paul himself within Romans 7:15-20 and I will stand corrected. Or make some type of logical case for why a 21st Century non-Jewish christian (who's never been circumcised physically to begin with) would have the same types of inward struggles with fleshly circumcision (just for example) or prpacticing the sacrificing of bull/goats for another example, or other Jewish Laws, etc. that Paul specifically struggled with.
I do believe Paul's words are Holy Spirit inspired writings. That's why I believe what they specifically say, not necessarily what they don't say.
smaller
Member
Uh, no. Jesus already told us that it is NOT what goes into a person's mouth that defiles them any more than going to the bathroom defiles us. Therefore, again, "the law is spiritual" in nature. Bulls, goats, sheep, shrimp and pork in the external senses really have nothing to do with what the LAWS are speaking of. They are shadows of "other matters," unseen.
Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Paul notes identically, here:
1 Corinthians 8:8
But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
They are facts, but not about "just and only Paul." Paul himself brings out the FACT that "no longer I" is involved, directly, in these matters. Seeing only Paul is quite a pointless sight. It is even noted twice in the scripture set you just cited, as "no longer I" by Paul.
If you are trying to claim that sin does not dwell in our flesh as Paul proposes or that evil is not also present with us, you are quite sadly mistaken. All have sinned as a past tense matter, all "have" sin as a present tense matter. Romans 3:9, 1 John 1:8. And yes, sin indwelling the flesh IS evil present with us. It is adverse spiritual power/working in the flesh. 1 John 3:8
If you think Paul was the only one with sin indwelling his flesh and evil present with him Paul does NOT make that case. EDITED BY STAFF No flesh really cares to hear these facts for itself because it is ADVERSE to these disclosures. So maybe recognize what is going on here?
See previous. Sin is a "universal affliction of the flesh of man." Not just Paul.
Want to see this universal condition in the flesh of EVERY believer?
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
EDITED BY STAFF
We should, as believers, understand that our own sorry hides will intentionally deceive us in receiving and understanding these matters, BECAUSE it is factually against the Spirit, AND the Spirit works against the flesh. Gal. 5:17. The flesh will lie to us every time. And the Spirit will force the issue, to PROVE it is a liar that can not receive the things of the Spirit.
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chessman
Member
I'm not.
Edited out reference to deleted text.
Maybe to you that's funny. But to me, It's funny that you assume that's the case I'm trying to make.
What I do think and posted was that:
Which is true.
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smaller
Member
Then we are having a communications problem because I thought you said Paul was only speaking about himself having sin dwelling in his flesh and evil present with him, and that this was not a personal example of facts that apply for all of us. I could have sworn you made this claim:
"They are NOT Paul stating facts about you/me or anyone else."
I think Paul was really really honest about his disclosures about "the flesh, particularly his own." And these disclosures are the "honest truth" from the Holy Spirit, speaking truthfully in Paul, identifying that working as "no longer I" that do it. I also think these are personally applicable to ALL beyond any dispute. I've also found that hypocrisy finds a very hard time 'fessing up' to these matters.
This alone would put the notions of freewill to permanent bye bye. Romans 7:17-21.
Freewill postures have ZERO accounting in their guesswork for "no longer I" nor do they acknowledge that the Spirit of Christ is also active, within them, moving and affecting their decisions. To me it is a Godless claim, to promote freewill.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
chessman
Member
That is correct. Those particular verses are Paul (A circumcised Jew converted to Christianity) stating the facts about himself. Which is what I pretty clearly stated several times in that post and repeated in others. My point was and is still that Rom 7:15-20 should be read, studied and understood as such (from Paul's perspective). Else, he would have stated them otherwise to apply to us all. When you post them (those particular verses) and 'try' to apply them to the rest of humanity, like a 21st Century non-Jewish person who as zero struggles/desires to go sacrifice a bull/goat or get circumcised in the flesh, you do so without any merit. Pick another verse (like 1 John 1:8) or two or three to make that observation you make so often about people. You make a very valid point and there's plenty of Scripture that tell us that all men sin (pre and post salvation). These just aren't among them.
There's a lot going on in/.around Romans 7 to include many Scriptures that support the freewill of men to make the choices we make (pre and post salvation) which is the topic of this thread. Like Paul choosing to stop obeying some of the Jewish laws he once practiced and thought brought righteous and cleansing toward him. And they DID for HIM! But for him, post salvation, many of those things became 'sinful' to him. Quite deep really and way more intricate than the simple fact that men sin. Maybe even off-topic for this particular thread (maybe not).
But if you cannot see and accept the simple fact that Rom 7:15-20 is about Paul himself (I lost count of how many times he made it clear in those five verses it was about him) and not really about you/me, then you'll not be able to see it. Or more accurately, choose not to.
smaller
Member
I would not call "no more I" Paul, because he didn't.
Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Edited by staff
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Jim Parker
Member
Deuteronomy 29:29
chessman
Member
So you think "no more I" "but sin" is some thing (or some messenger) other than Paul's old nature doing it?
Romans 7:17, 20 (AMP) So now if that is the case, then it is no longer I who do it the disobedient thing which I despise, but the sin nature which lives in me.
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want to do, I am no longer the one doing it that is, it is not me that acts, but the sin nature which lives in me.
I don't. Why? Not because people don't continue to sin but because of his previous and post discussion about the Law (meaning all the Jewish laws).But if I am doing the very thing I do not want to do, I am no longer the one doing it that is, it is not me that acts, but the sin nature which lives in me.
Romans 7:5 (LEB) For when we (Jewish brothers) were in the flesh, sinful desires were working through the law in our members, to bear fruit for death.
I think he means his fleshly desires to go back to the Old Jewish Law. Once a method of cleansing for him but no longer so.
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smaller
Member
Obviously it was not Paul.
Yeah, I think that's pretty clear on the face of the statements.
Not Paul. YET doing what it does.
I'd hardly see it that way when Paul doesn't.
Some might get the picture Paul gave us here:
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
And connect the dot to the obvious:
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
and here:
Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Obviously the devil is involved with sin, which sin, "all" have.
chessman
Member
Some might, true. But the real questions is; Is it more reasonable that the Romans reading his letter to them 'get the picture' from receiving Paul's letter to them by reading verse 7:7 then 7:17,20 or by 'connecting the dots' to his 2nd letter to the Corinthians or to the Ephesians (which wasn't even written yet).
Douglas Summers
Member
Hi Chessman, I think so too. Saul agrees with the righteousness of the Law in his mind, but the old nature has it's inheritance from Adam (as do all men) to satisfy the wants of the flesh. So in his mind he agrees with the commandments of the Law and it"s benefits to mankind. But he always had the fear of death because he could not find a way to get rid of the condemnation that the law brought upon him because of the sin still in his members.
But out of a endless path of sin that is inescapable through his Adamic nature, that is a wretched body of death. Paul rejoices in the discovery of God in Jesus Christ and God's mercy and grace, and the satisfying of the demand of the Law (death). That he is now justified because the demand is no more hanging over his head, because the balance that was due (death) was paid in full by the enforcer of the law out of His own personal account. (The Christ of God). But even more than that, He has created us again (you must be born again) in the image of His Son with legal rights and heir's to the throne of Christ (a kingdom of priest and kings). As he describes in The Letter to the Romans.
He was now in Christ Jesus (road to Damascus) Paul, in Romans 7: was telling his experience as Saul of Tarsus, and chapter 8 as the Paul of Christ. But before Saul of Tarsus went through the battle with his mind and the Law of God. He thought he was perfect in the Law. (Philip. 3:4-9) (sinless). But when he meet the Lord, the law that he was perfect in , came to life, he found that it had fooled him (Rom. 7:7-14).
chessman
Member
Hi Douglas,
I tried to think of a way to describe all that you said clearly enough to post in a decent length post but couldn't manage it. You summarized Paul's flow and progressions from Jew to Christian and struggles with the Law becoming 'sin' to him quite clearly and succinctly in my opinion.
Great post. Really well thought out. [not just because you agreed with my specific point but because you've obviously thought it through and communicated clearly]. I find Romans very, very deep theologically and grammatically. It challanges me to comprehend it at times.