Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

None of this refuted the logic of post #803. So it still stands.


btw, please define what these so-called "gifts to repentance" is. I've never heard of that. What does it mean?

The word of truth completely refutes your "logic", because your "logic" is made up of half scriptures, [half truth], while ignoring the context.

btw, considering this statement in your post:
"The passage doesn't say all the gifts are irrevocable, but the gifts and the calling to repentance are irrevocable."

Taking others to task for adding words to verses doesn't give the right to violate your own standards. Nowhere in Rom 11:29 do we find the words "to repentance".

The call of salvation through the Gospel message is: Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

This gifts through which the call of the Gospel is made is still extended to those who were cut off because of unbelief.

This is the context which Romans 11:29 was written, which we see in the next verse's that use the word "gifts".

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:3-8

and before that:

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:19-29


Those who were broken off because of unbelief, still have the calling and the gifts through which this calling is made... Because the gifts and calling are irrevocable [without regret]


JLB

 

[JLB]

This brings to mind several chapters in Corinthians, I believe the 2nd letter chapters 12-14. Let us neither give offense or take offense; for each has their own tradition. As Paul asserts, we only place obstacles in the paths of others by being forceful on one manner or another. Regardless which side of the fence we are on: our belief one way or another will not impact the fact that it will yet remain what it is, and some day perhaps we will have the privilege of seeing the answer unfold in front of us! Believe what you will folks; for as long as you believe God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess Christ with your mouth, you are saved! To me this is all that matters.

It's all that matters if you are unsaved, for this is the way to salvation.

After we are saved by faith in Christ Jesus, we are to continue in that faith, if we intend to remain reconciled to Him.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

for as long as you believe God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess Christ with your mouth, you are saved! To me this is all that matters.

If you believe this for a while, then no longer believe, what then?


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



JLB

 

[JLB]

I almost find it as blaspheming the Holy Spirit to say that he won't keep you from falling away (if you have been truly born again) 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Jude 24-25 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

What is the Holy Spirit for, if not to guide you unto holiness?

He will guide... does that mean all will follow?

Christians who choose to disobey, will be corrected by the Lord to be brought back, like a Sheppard who goes after a sheep who becomes lost.

The Lord will call and call the sheep to return... will the lost sheep respond?

If the sheep is lost, it needs to repent [turn back to God] in order to be found.

Lost being the key word.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I mean, God's word will accomplish in a believer what it is set out to do.

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Whatever words were given by the Holy Spirit, were given for a purpose.

The admonishments given from Jesus and Paul accomplish in a believer, what it is supposed to accomplish - - - -keeps the flesh going in the right direction in holiness. I listen to my God fully, cause he knows what's best for my soul.

You're speaking about sanctification here LTD. It's a life-long process in which both we and the Holy Spirit have a hand.

Sometimes people express this and make it sound like we no longer sin once we've become born again. John said that if we say we are not sinners, we lie.
1John 1:8

Our love for Jesus will always keep sinning to a minimum, although it will never fully disappear. God is so perfect and would require perfection, which is impossible, and so we look to Christ to cover for our sins and to get us to the Kingdom of Heaven - which begins right here on earth.

You're on the right road!!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

A person is yet subject to the chastening of the LORD. John as well as Paul write of sins unto death; a sign someone is not saved is a dearth of divine chastisement in their lives, or as says the scripture, a bastard (Hebrews 12.5-11).

Deuteronomy 8.5 "Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee."

I Corinthians 3.16-7 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

II Corinthians 6.9 "as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;"

I John 5.16-8 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Apocalypse 3.19-22 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Sorry. I'm not really quick and don't understand what you're trying to say.
Are you saying we're never to sin?
Are you Catholic? They believe in venial sins which do NOT bring to death and in mortal sins which DO bring to death.

So are you saying that if God doesn't chastise me, I'm not saved??
And of what would this chastisement consist?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

This brings to mind several chapters in Corinthians, I believe the 2nd letter chapters 12-14. Let us neither give offense or take offense; for each has their own tradition. As Paul asserts, we only place obstacles in the paths of others by being forceful on one manner or another. Regardless which side of the fence we are on: our belief one way or another will not impact the fact that it will yet remain what it is, and some day perhaps we will have the privilege of seeing the answer unfold in front of us! Believe what you will folks; for as long as you believe God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess Christ with your mouth, you are saved! To me this is all that matters.

I do agree with you S4UJ in that we are to love one another no matter what our belief is.
John 13:35
We are to edify each other.

However, doesn't the bible also say that we are not to be led astray by false teachers?
Mathew 7:15
Mathew 15:9
Ephesians 5:6
1 Timothy 1:3-7
1 Timothy 4:1-3
2 Timothy 4:3

And many more.

I'll just comment on Mathew 15:9
I firmly believe that eternal salvation is a precept of man. A concept that someone put forth many years after Jesus died. About 1,500 to be precise. Before this, no one in the church believed that a person could believe ONE TIME and then NOT believe and proceed to live a life of sin and still be saved.

The reason this doctrine bothers me is because it makes us become NOT RESPONSIBLE for our sins. Being the humans we are and having a sinful nature, we will, in many cases, be led astray by sweet sounding words that tell us not to worry about sinning.


Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

Right. Wrong.

Confused?

How do you know who is right and who is wrong?

I consult Greek lexicons.

Do you know what the theologian told me, with whom I discussed that tense you love? The aorist tense.
After explaining to me how the aorist tense is of NO IMPORTANCE when translating the bible from Greek to English (or any other language), he said he wishes the writers of the N.T. had been more clear in what they said.

What credentials does this "theologian" have? At least provide a name so one can check him out. Maybe it's just an assumption that this person is a theologian. I say that because of his/her complaint that the NT wasn't "more clear". This alone casts significant doubt on any credentials as a real theologian.

If there is no importance attached to the aorist tense, then please show that the present tense has importance. Why would one tense have no importance and other tenses have importance?

This seems to be just a cherry picking excuse to ignore tenses that don't help one's bias or assumptions.

So you checked the lexicon for the word "believe". That's nice.

Well, I'm glad for the approval.

Go speak to someone who knows the Greek of the bible and ask them what "believe" means. If you believe in someone, you learn from and follow that person.

So "someone who knows the Greek" knows more than a Greek lexicon??? Seriously? How would someone even come to know the Greek if they never read a lexicon?

It seems that every church believes in loss of salvation except the Universalist church and the Reformed church.

Nonsense.

Universalism can be proven from the bible too BTW.

Cannot. The Bible teaches that many will end up in the lake of fire. Those who believe in universalism do NOT know their Bibles.

"For God wishes ALL MEN TO BE SAVED".

How does this support universalism? I sure doesn't say that all men will be saved.

See FreeGrace. You cannot pluck verses out to prove points.

Is this just another assumption that not all verses are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness?

Then what did Paul mean in 2 Tim 3:16?
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Jesus came here for a reason. As long as we adhere to what JESUS taught, we are safe in His arms.

One must KNOW what He taught, and not simply assume what He meant.

When we decide (if ever) to LEAVE His protecting arms, we are LOST once again.

I will ask once again for what verse says this.

Jesus gives life to those who ABIDE in Him and who BELIEVE in Him.

Again, please provide what verse says that He gives life for those who abide in Him. That is not Scriptural. He gives life to those who believe in Him.

Assuming that abiding and believing are equated is in error.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The logic of post #803 is solid. Irrefutable. Or else it would have been refuted by now.

Until you can prove that 'fiery hell' does not mean the place of the damned, and 'who believe in ME' does not mean real believers in the following passage, and you can prove that true believers will never leave the faith, your interpretation of Romans 11:29 NASB puts Paul in direct contradiction with what Jesus said:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

You have not proven any of the things I noted above to remove the contradiction you have created between Paul and Jesus.

What we know Romans 11:29 NASB does say is that God has not changed his mind (repented) about the gifts and calling for Israel even though they have rejected all of those. Those gifts and calling are irrevocable. Future generations of Israelites will indeed walk in the gifts and calling God gave them, because He hasn't changed his mind (repented) about that. Romans 11:29 NASB is NOT a OSAS verse. If it is, it directly contradicts Jesus statements above.

So, that's what you still have to do:
1) prove Jesus is not talking about real believers.
2) prove the fiery hell he is referring to where believers could potentially go is not the place of the damned.
3) real believers can never stumble.

When you prove all of these then you can prove that OSAS is the true doctrine. Restating your argument is not going to accomplish anything. Instead, you have to do the three things I listed to prove your argument. Same for everyone else.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's interesting that traditional OSAS people like yourself can not see the necessity to continue in faith to continue to be saved in their own argument.

Because it's not taught anywhere in Scripture.

Plus, I've proven from logic that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

The OSAS side says that once you are saved, you will REMAIN saved NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO for the rest of your life. They believe it's not even necessary to ask for forgiveness because it's an insult to Jesus.

I don't generally reply when posts are responses to another poster, but this response needs comment.

I have no idea who your sources are, but the claim that OSAS folk "believe it's not even necessary to ask for forgiveness because it's an insult to Jesus" is totally bogus. So please identify specifically what group or groups teach this total nonsense.

There is a theological view that is different from both Calvinism and Arminianism, called "free grace". Those in the free grace camp would laugh at your comment.

1 John 1:9 has a very significant place in free grace theology. We confess our sins in order to be forgiven, which is different than asking for forgiveness. But forgiveness is highly important for the Christian walk. It's how we are cleansed for fellowship, which is the subject of the first ch of 1 John.

Those who don't regularly confess their sins are NOT in fellowship with Christ. They are NOT abiding in Him.

 

[FreeGrace]

The word of truth completely refutes your "logic", because your "logic" is made up of half scriptures, [half truth], while ignoring the context.

OK, not back up your "charge" by proving that either:
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God, or
2. the gifts of God are NOT irrevocable.

It's that simple. When someone can prove either of these 2 things, the logic that I presented (if A = B, and B = C, then A = C) will have been refuted.

So, please, proceed to prove either #1 or #2 in order to refute the logic of eternal security.

But, just disagreeing with it and throwing baseless claims against it does not refute anything.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you believe this for a while, then no longer believe, what then?

You're an apostate. And will be under the discipline of the Lord.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
JLB

If it can be shown from Scripture that falling away refers to salvation, please proceed.

 

[FreeGrace]

Until you can prove that 'fiery hell' does not mean the place of the damned, and 'who believe in ME' does not mean real believers in the following passage, and you can prove that true believers will never leave the faith, your interpretation of Romans 11:29 NASB puts Paul in direct contradiction with what Jesus said:

I've provided an explanation. What is done with that explanation is the issue.

The logic I presented is solid and proves eternal security. But if someone can prove that either
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God, or
2. the gifts of God are NOT irrevocable

Then I will admit my logic is flawed. But not until then.

Eternal life is a gift of God, and the gifts of God are irrevocable. Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

You have not proven any of the things I noted above to remove the contradiction you have created between Paul and Jesus.

There is NO contradiction between Paul and Jesus. There is clear contradiction between the views of loss of salvation and Scripture.

What we know Romans 11:29 NASB does say is that God has not changed his mind (repented) about the gifts and calling for Israel even though they have rejected all of those.

I'm still wondering what these so-called "gifts" are that Israel has been given. Please direct me to ANY verse that describes anything Israel has as a gift. That would help your argument.

I've asked this before, and no answer was given, which weakens your position significantly.

Those gifts and calling are irrevocable.

No one has proven or even showed that the gits and calling are "those" gifts and calling. Paul didn't specify any specific gifts. He plainly and clearly said "the gifts and calling". He did NOT narrow the kinds of gifts, as your position does.

Unless someone proves that the logic I presented is flawed, there is nothing more to prove.

Eternal life is a gift of God, and the gifts of God are irrevocable.

If this could be disproved, it would have been done by now. Yet, not one has done that.

 

[smaller]

Paul, by ways of introduction in Romans, takes us through the steps of law, of evil present and sin's operations in the flesh. And does so precisely to bring us to this point of understanding:

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

If readers think they only have A LOVE relationship with God in Christ, they really have no understanding that there is also an equally OPPOSING relationship, just as REAL, with Gods CONDEMNATION.

We all have sin in the flesh. We all have "evil present" with us. Romans 7:17-21 is REAL for all flesh of man.

Do the math on both sides of the equation. There is in fact a LOVE/HATE relationship. No believer comes instantly to understand BOTH aspects. They will invariably see only one aspect, and just as quickly, always DENY the other.

Paul did not see things that way. By way of examples, many, Paul draws out these matters with BOTH ASPECTS, always there to see. It is the indwelling sin and evil present with us that refuses to see or hear and refuses to take rightful condemnation.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Yet the works for salvation proponents endlessly claim that via (whatever, obedience, faith, legal compliance, the Spirit) that their flesh does not have this contrary relationship with Gods quite Rightful CONDEMNATION.

Everybody wants to think God in Christ is only their good buddy as long as they do X. That's really not the case. God in Christ is equally, both FRIEND and FOE.

IF we thought about these matters for a moment, we also are or should be FOE to the indwelling sin and evil present with us. And you would see that God being FOE is also in our behalves. But very few people can find LIFE in the FOE and condemnation aspects of God in Christ, when that too is meant for our LIFE. Those who submit to Gods condemnation, will obviously hear more and differently than those who don't and can't submit and rather, deny.

Most sects are formed around believers who resist Gods condemnation and adverse Judgments, and seek to avoid it for themselves, by whatever manners of constructs those sects give them to avoid.

Just like the people after the flood, of Babel, almost immediately began to build a TOWER to avoid and protect them from the death consequences of another flood of Gods Judgments.

We are to TURN and FACE Gods condemnation. Just as Romans 8:3 proposes. Not run away from it as quickly as we can.

Everyone posting here today, does so with flesh that is contrary to and against the Spirit. And every finger is in denial.

 

[LovethroughDove]

He will guide... does that mean all will follow?

Christians who choose to disobey, will be corrected by the Lord to be brought back, like a Sheppard who goes after a sheep who becomes lost.

The Lord will call and call the sheep to return... will the lost sheep respond?

If the sheep is lost, it needs to repent [turn back to God] in order to be found.

Lost being the key word.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


JLB

These lost sheep are people before the become born again and given the Holy Spirit. After you've been given the Spirit you become..........

John 6:39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

And the found sheep and the sheep that were with him do this......

John 10:2-5 "The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes ahead of them, and his sheep will follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize the stranger's voice."

So, those who have the Holy Spirit in them..........know the voice of God and know when we hear the devil. We can distinguish.
There is a major repentance when you become born again. Meaning, you thought you knew who Jesus was and BAM you're hit with the truth of him and then you see the light and repent. That is when he finds you.

After that, you just listen to everything he says. That includes repentance. (if you mess up a little)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

FreeGrace , you say Paul says eternal life can not be taken away from a person (Romans 11:29 NASB).
Jesus says believers can stumble so as to go to the eternal fire (Mark 9:42-48 NASB, Matthew 18:6-9 NASB).

How do you reconcile this glaring contradiction?

 

[LovethroughDove]

FreeGrace , you say Paul says eternal life can not be taken away from a person (Romans 11:29 NASB).
Jesus says believers can stumble so as to go to the eternal fire (Mark 9:42-48 NASB, Matthew 18:6-9 NASB).

How do you reconcile this glaring contradiction?

Jethro. The little children aren't stumbling into hell. The person who is causing the little child to stumble will face hell.
Matthew 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin

Example: anyone who is telling lies about Christ. like he really didn't die and raise from the dead, or he didn't really exist......stuff like that

The rest of the parable is a warning about sin in the parts of our bodies that cause sin. Warnings
Little ones heed warnings.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Oh, also I'm pretty sure it is directed to anyone wanting bad intentions towards believers.

Also, bad intentions towards literal little children.

 

[WIP]

I almost find it as blaspheming the Holy Spirit to say that he won't keep you from falling away (if you have been truly born again)

How does one know they are "truly born again?"

 

[WIP]

Because we are still in our flesh.


Again, we are still in our flesh. He is speaking to the flesh, so we look to the Holy Spirit.

Can we be "in our flesh" and born again at the same time?