WIP brilliant redirection; well played. I would refer to Paul's dissertation in Romans 7:1-22,( the constant battle of the dual nature of our flesh versus the Holy Spirit,). Yes one can be born again and yet,"in the flesh," simply due to the nature of the flesh in relation to free will. While one cannot "undo," rebirth in the Spirit; one can willingly choose/undertake the actions, thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors that are more conducive to the flesh. Paul was much beside himself over the nature of the spiritual warfare between these natures within him; and given that authentic heart and fervent desire, did not allow "the flesh," to truly take hold. While he did give into moments,"in the flesh," in larger scope he was far more directed via Spirit.
Paul assuredly did "not" associate himself as a child of God and then "him" having another nature. That is not what Paul presents. Paul clearly presents sin as "no more I." Twice for emphasis, in Romans 7:17 & again in vs. 19.
Paul saw this as warring, rightfully so. Romans 7:23. He was not warring against his "other nature" but a foreign to himself nature that "actively" works against and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. This is what caused him to see his "wretched man that I am" fact, Romans 7:24, in a body that "is dead" because of indwelling sin, Romans 8:10. There was nothing he could do to stop "no more I" from doing what "no more I" did. And this eventually results in real physical death.
Read about what "no more I" did in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:15, Romans 7:19. Yes, these from an Apostle no less.
You talk about HONESTY! Paul couldn't have been any more HONEST.
This foreign intrusion is pinpointed, specifically in 2 Cor. 12:7, and again in Gal. 3:13:14, showing and proving it is the working of the spirit of disobedience, the adversary, the 'tempter.'
There are the two natures. One completely foreign to the other. Not similar in any way.
And because of this, knowing that because of this spiritual adversary, following the "law" was essentially impossible. The evil present with Paul can not obey the law. Romans 7:21, no matter what kind of "show" Paul put up on the outside. The PROBLEM is internal, which Jesus also directly pinpoints. A matter of factual 'evil' in the heart. Hebrews 10:22 shows again, the same thing. 1 John 3:8 nails this matter cold, identifying that "sin is of the devil." This really couldn't be any clearer.
And this is also precisely WHY believers are "eternally secure." We couldn't earn our ways out of a wet paper bag.
It is at points like these folks, when we do well not to be overly focused on semantics and nit-picking wording. Often, this trend has surfaced here: one poster says a thing, a responder chooses a "less than ideal," wording or presentation,(thus ignoring context and underlying principle,) and begins to refute based solely on the fallibility of mankind as evidenced in a less than ideal choice of words.
The security of the believer is in spite of and regardless of the facts of the working of the adversary. That's all there is to the matters. And, once any believer actually REALIZES that internal temptation is of the adversary, doing so INTERNALLY, they may be in for a bit of a JOLT as they will have to start recognizing to "capture and control" their thoughts, in order to run the INTERCEPT. They will also probably go back to the theological drawing board as well.
I do not judge, nor do I condemn mind you.
We have every right to not only judge, but to totally condemn the adversary's operations in our own flesh, unto eternal damnation in hell. It's an enlightening REMINDER to the other party(s). And yes, it DOES help. This notion that christians are to abandon all judgment is quite erroneous. But we tend not to direct it 'properly' to WHOM it is DUE.
The deeper pit that many a believer falls into is in thinking they are sinless, which is a SNARE of the adversary, turning them into liars, or even worse, double dealing their own sin as hypocrites. Lying hypocrisy is actually the WORST state of mind that a believer can get suckered into. The very things Jesus HATED the most,
because it is an open sign of demonic slaveship and zero scriptural knowledge. John 8:44
I would simply advise caution in these matters. It is one thing for "Iron to sharpen iron," but its a whole different monster when sharpening each other becomes cutting each other; especially over trivial items that are completely misinterpreted due to a tendency to judge it by face value. (IE: specific wording, presentation, basic human error, etc.)
In the end, let us be salt...let us be light; for if we are not edifying, we are tearing down...and we all know from whom that kind of destruction originates eh? Thanks n God Bless!
The above, once understood, will bring no uncertain paradox to any theological equations. All the while a believer, thinking "OSAS" applies that to the entirety of what they are currently, IT'S A FAIL.
And on the other side of the coin, those claiming their indwelling sin and evil present is "obedient" and "under Grace" as long as they perform adequately also MAKE AND TAKE no account for scriptural reality of indwelling sin (no more I) and evil present, falsely claiming these workings don't exist or they are wiped away by "proper performances" which is not and can not be the case.
IF we are observant to Paul, we WILL see TWO FATES.
Eternal Salvation for Paul,
and the opposite fate for the party in RED, below:
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn
in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
This same understanding does also provide us a basis to actually LOVE our neighbors as ourselves, because they essentially have the identical issue. It's not just them involved in their spiritual blindness.
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom
the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
We are to LOVE one and HATE and RESIST the other. That's how the system is setup by GOD. It's also why a LOT of believers are and will remain "confused" with christian theology. They fail to count to TWO and only see ONE, because that is what their flesh eyes see. Scriptures don't see that way
and neither did those who penned those Words.
Jesus gives us the PRIME EXAMPLE of the "two party" system, here:
Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side,
where the word is sown; but when they have heard,
Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown
in their hearts.
Count 'em. It's pretty clear there is the person, and the BLINDER in the above equation, IN THEIR HEART.
There are literally "thousands" of open examples of the above in the N.T. Gospels. A person
would have to be blind to miss this obvious fact of scripture. But the fact that "we" do miss it speaks to the reality of the blinder, thereby confirming it to those who DO see it.
We've had people right here at this board, who look at this statement in red, and swear by Almighty God that it's not there to see:
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn
in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
I beg to differ,
and prefer to see the obvious.
