Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

John 6:39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Yes that is God's will.

These lost sheep are people before the become born again and given the Holy Spirit. After you've been given the Spirit you become..........

Where does it say this teaching only refers to people before they were born again.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

"My sheep" is a reference to His people that become lost.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You did not prove what you need to prove in order for your interpretation of Romans 11:29 NASB to be consistent with the rest of scripture.

I did. But anyone is free to take the solid logic of: If A = B, and B = C, then A = C and try to prove that it is flawed.

Since eternal life (A) is a gift of God (B) (Rom 6:23, and
Since God's gifts (B) are irrevocable (C) (Rom 11:29), therefore
Eternal life (A) is irrevocable (C). Case closed.

Every attempt to try to prove that salvation can be lost is only an attempt to create contradiction within the Word of God. Does that please God?

Your superficial, incomplete, 'not rightly dividing the word of God' logic

If that's correct, why hasn't anyone come forward to prove this claim?

causes Jesus to contradict Paul because Jesus said to cast away the stumbling blocks that cause the body to be cast into hell (Mark 9:42-48 NASB, Matthew 18:6-9 NASB), indicating that can really happen. That's how we know your logic is flawed.

Jesus and Paul both taught eternal security. Your analysis is quite flawed.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was absolutely in agreement with shiny4ujesus about true belief. I totally agree with you on your last sentence in your paragraph. People can deceive themselves that they are believers.

Jesus talks about "you must be born again" John 3:6

I literally had a surge of energy run through me, when I was forced to accept the truth of the resurrection or not. I believed a 100% it was true in that moment.

After that moment, I walked in the Spirit. Meaning, when I would be out amongst others.....I realized every feeling I projected when I walked passed someone....they sense. Everyone can sense your feelings towards them, but you only realize this when you have been born of Spirit.

I don't think someone can know if they are not born of the Spirit? Once you have been given the Spirit, it is a whole new ball game.

So if I don't have this "surge of energy", I'm not born again?

Is this how one knows he is born again??

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I did.

You were unable to prove that the eternal, fiery hell in Mark 9:42-48 NASB/ Matthew 18:6-9 NASB, where believers who stumble will go, is 'not really' the place of the damned.

I proved your logic wrong by these passages. That's why you have to address those passages, not restate your logic. That's how debates work.

 

[GodsGrace]

Considering the 1689 Second London Confession clearly identifies the Pope as the man of sin, forbids unbiblical monastical vows, maintains a consubstantiation interpretation of the Lord's table, so forth, why don't you decide if that is a papist confession or not? Moreover, the Authorized Version is the Bible the Jesuits attempt at all costs to destroy, and the destruction of the Byzantine text is their outstanding goal against which they are to act as willfull slaves for the Pope without question. Here is a link to their Extreme High Oath as recorded in the sixty-second US Congress.

I am saying that even with the preserving promise of God to persevere his children, Jehovah especially guarantees to reward all men according to their works (Ga. 6.7; Apoc. 22). It is therefore not a permit to sin. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! Should God not chasten anyone, it is an indicator of a lack of salvation or reward for extreme rebellion. Assuming you have read the whole Bible, it ought to be plainly obvious the chastening of God ranges from sickness, pain, lack of blessing, curses ad nauseum proportionate to the breach against His holy, pluperfect law.

Not all sins are sins unto death like those listed in Leviticus 20. All sin is punished with mortal and spiritual death (Ro. 6.23) only remitted in the blood of Emmanuel, the spotless propitiation of God's ordained. Think on the following Questions from the Baptist Catechism of 1695.

The 1689 Second London Confession as well offers a lovely chapter on the perseverance of the saints.

These questions are for Particular Baptist:

Hmmm. I don't really know what the 1689 Second London Confession is.
Is it superior to the bible?

I'm also not familiar with the Baptist Catechism of 1695.
It says that all sin is punished? I thought all sin was forgiven by the atoning death of Jesus, Lord and Savior.

So when a child dies, it's God who's making him die to teach me something and chastise me, as per your statement above?

And Catholics believe in cosubstantiation???
Oh. I thought they believed in TRANSsubstantiation.

Could you tell me the difference??

Yes. I find all your statements very confusing.


Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Or your view that Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches salvation then de-salvation is flawed to begin with.

For it is impossible concerning those who have once been _____ and ____ to renew them again to ______...
​

Your view 'fills in the blanks' with:

For it is impossible concerning those who have once been _saved_ and having become de-saved_ to renew them again to _salvation_ ...
​

That's not at all what the passage says in the first place.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (LEB) For it is impossible concerning those who have once been
enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and become sharers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the coming age,
and having
fallen away,
to renew them again to
repentance, ...
​

God applies Heb 6:4-6 exactly as written. Just as He does Rom 11:29.

We've already proven that the Hebrew church was saved. The author goes into detail in chapter 10 to describe their born again lives.

 

[LovethroughDove]

So if I don't have this "surge of energy", I'm not born again?

Is this how one knows he is born again??

Wondering

I don't know about other people. It felt like the tingling when you hear something true and it hits you to the core. The tingling went through my whole body.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Yes that is God's will.



Where does it say this teaching only refers to people before they were born again.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

"My sheep" is a reference to His people that become lost.



JLB

I put John 6:39 "I shall lose none" with the lost sheep to prove that they were lost until they were found and now he doesn't lose.

 

[LovethroughDove]

No, Jesus said it's better for his body to enter life minus various body parts than for his body to go to hell complete:
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8 NASB)

I agreed with you on this, on my previous response to you. I just don't agree with the children stumbling into hell. I think that is what you were stating?

Jesus told us unless we become like little children we shall not see the kingdom. Matthew 18:3

 

[smaller]

I don't know about other people. It felt like the tingling when you hear something true and it hits you to the core. The tingling went through my whole body.

That's not unusual. I "felt" the Love of God in Christ within, the moment I believed. I felt that change. Like I was not "alone" in my heart. The term "Comforter" is a good descriptor. It is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Christ's Love.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The Holy Ghost prophesied, through Paul, that after Paul departed grievous wolves would enter, attempting to DESTROY (not sparing) the flock. These are the voices of those who seek believers condemnation in eternal hell, NOT their Eternal Comfort. This is the "damnation to believers and non-secure salvation heritage" left behind from post Apostolic churches, just as was prophesied in Acts 20:27-29.

The grievous wolves will never listen. They can't hear or see Gods Love in Christ. They claim it controlled by them. They claim it of no effect. The More Love that is poured upon them, the MORE they will resist. And this too was seen by Jesus, even in the religious leaders of Israel prior. John 8:44, Mark 4:15

This too however is a working of God, hardening them against Gods Grace, Love, Forgiveness and Mercy in Christ.

Those who have HIS MERCY, show it, share it, BUILD IT, LIFT IT UP. Those who don't, don't have it to show or to share.

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

I learned over the course of time, of walking with our Lord, of study of His Ways, to avoid "their ways." Because they are always 'close at hand.' Closer than we care to see.

Acts 20:
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

There is no more perverse thing, than to threaten Gods children with eternal torture in fire, forever. You can not insult the Holy Ghost, our COMFORTER, any more than that.

 

[FreeGrace]

You were unable to prove that the eternal, fiery hell in Mark 9:42-48 NASB/ Matthew 18:6-9 NASB, where believers who stumble will go, is 'not really' the place of the damned.

So, have you proved that the Bible is internally contradicted? Congrats!

I proved your logic wrong by these passages.

That's just pitting your misunderstanding of verses against other verses.

No one has taken apart the logic I provided that shows that eternal life is irrevocable.

The ONLY way to do that is to prove from Scripture that either:
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God, or
2. God's gifts are NOT irrevocable.

Please proceed.

That's why you have to address those passages, not restate your logic. That's how debates work.

I believe that your approach has no understanding at all of how debates work.

And, I already addressed your so-called problem passage. That passage does NOT prove that salvation can be lost. If it did, then the Bible WOULD be contradictory. Fortunately, it is NOT, but your ideas are contradictory with the Bible.

Both passages are hyperbolic and hypothetical. You've not proven otherwise.

To take these passages literally, then one must practice self mutilation and self dismemberment in order to avoid hell.

Consider 1 John 2:16 -
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Now, we all know that lust is sinful. And it would be extremely easy to believe that all of us (you and me) are guilty of the "lust of the eyes".

So, have you plucked your eyes out of your head yet? If not, why not? Jesus said to pluck out your eyes if they cause you to sin and to avoid being cast into hell fire.

Why have you not obeyed the words of Jesus?

 

[chessman]

That's not unusual. I "felt" the Love of God in Christ within, the moment I believed.

I agree. I went from being quite literally in a cold sweat and stuck to the pew, to feeling lighter than air and at peace the moment I yielded to the Holy Spirit. Way before I ever made it to the front with the preacher, I was SAVED!

There is no more perverse thing, than to threaten Gods children with eternal torture in fire, forever. You can not insult the Holy Ghost, our COMFORTER, any more than that.

I agree, too. God's Will, will be done.

It was the Holy Spirit that convinced me, it would take the Holy Spirit to un-convince me. I just don't see that happening.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I just don't agree with the children stumbling into hell. I think that is what you were stating?

That's exactly what I'm saying.
Jesus said it's better to cut off the parts of the Body of believers that cause the believers in the Body to stumble so as to be cast into hell. He said it's better to enter into life without those parts of the Body (hands, feet, eyes-1 Corinthians 14:14-26 NASB) that cause stumbling to the other parts than to keep their stumbling influence among us and cause us to go to hell.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I put John 6:39 "I shall lose none" with the lost sheep to prove that they were lost until they were found and now he doesn't lose.

Jesus will not fail in his ministerial duties on behalf of his people. His is a perfect ministry and sacrfice. He is not a buffoon and a yutz like Eli and his sons who did not perform their required temple duties properly and with clean hands, thus making it ineffective for the people.

But Christ's perfect ministry and sacrifice hardly negates the responsibility of the people themselves to continue to rely on his perfect, effectual ministry. Christ's perfect ministry does not remove the necessity for the person to have faith in that ministry. The author of Hebrews tells the saved believers at that church that they will lose the sacrifice of Christ if they trample on Christ's perfect sacrifice and ministry through a willful sinning/unbelief (Hebrews 10:26-39 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's just pitting your misunderstanding of verses against other verses.

I cited the plain words of scripture. And you have no defense against them.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's exactly what I'm saying.
Jesus said it's better to cut off the parts of the Body of believers that cause the believers in the Body to stumble so that they won't be cast into hell.

Consider 1 John 2:16 -
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Now, we all know that lust is sinful. And it would be extremely easy to believe that all of us (you and me) are guilty of the "lust of the eyes".

So, have you plucked your eyes out of your head yet? If not, why not? Jesus said to pluck out your eyes if they cause you to sin and to avoid being cast into hell fire.

Why have you not obeyed the words of Jesus?

He said it's better to enter into life without those parts of the Body (hands, feet, eyes-1 Corinthians 14:14-26 NASB) that cause stumbling to the other parts than to keep their stumbling influence among us and cause us to go to hell.

Then, logically, by your interpretation, a believer who still has all their body parts is claiming that they haven't sinned since salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I cited the plain words of scripture. And you have no defense against them.

I do but I'm not responsible for those who reject it.

I've also cited and plain words of Scripture, which you've made clear that you don't believe.

 

[LovethroughDove]

But Christ's perfect ministry and sacrifice hardly negates the responsibility of the people themselves to continue to rely on his perfect, effectual ministry. Christ's perfect ministry does not remove the necessity for the person to have faith in that ministry. The author of Hebrews tells the saved believers at that church that they will lose the sacrifice of Christ if they trample on Christ's perfect sacrifice and ministry through a willful sinning/unbelief (Hebrews 10:26-39 NASB).

I think everyone on the thread would agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know about other people. It felt like the tingling when you hear something true and it hits you to the core. The tingling went through my whole body.

LTD,
Christianity and being born agan is not a feeling.
It's something that we can know for sure because God and Jesus told us how we could know.

John, the Apostle, who spent over 3 years with Jesus wrote John 3:16.
If I believe in His Son, whom He sent so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, that is how I know I am saved.

Also, the book of Acts explains it well:
Acts 2:21
Acts 2:38
Acts 4:12

Also Romans 10:13

One day you may not have any feelings at all anymore, but you can still be assured you are saved by having faith in God's Son and by believing in Him for your salvation.


Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

LTD,

One day you may not have any feelings at all anymore, but you can still be assured you are saved by having faith in God's Son and by believing in Him for your salvation.

Wondering

It was something that happened to me. Not a feeling, it "felt"

John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.