Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[FreeGrace]

I'll cite it again, in case you missed it. Mark 4:15 happened immediately to the dust of Adam.

This gets repeatedly claimed, but absolutely NO evidence from Scripture.

 

[smaller]

There is absolutely zero biblical support for your opinion.

Said before, tell me why you think Mark 4:15 didn't transpire. I think it did.

The devil didn't show up until after the woman was formed from Adam.

Man was the last creation in the order. The "beasts" were created prior to. Gen. 1:24. And we should not see that as just beasts physically apparent. I do not believe the serpent was visible. Just as it is not visible today.

And the devil did NOT "come into the dust body of Adam".

Prove that Mark 4:15 didn't happen. Jesus said it does happen. That settles it for me.

That is tantamount to demon possession.

Since it is unlikely you have much scriptural basis of understandings, and instead posture Hollywood false depictions, it shows you know little of how "the tempter" operates. It has nothing to do with possession. So please don't force your hollywood style of theology as being my positions. Thank you.

Such an "application" of Mark 4:15 is totally fallacious regarding Adam and the woman. There is no basis for it. Nor have you shown any.

I've already "detailed" by scripture, how and why it did happen. If you want to go back and pick up the trail and provide scriptural counters, fine. I'm citing that Mark 4:15 happened. You can try to eliminate that fact from the events if you can find a way to do it, scripturally.

Actually, Paul referred to a thorn in the flesh. I'm sure most people can relate to that. Paul certainly wasn't demon possessed, as your position seems to insinuate.

Your insinuations are not my positions. So let's clear the air on that count. Did Paul have a messenger of Satan in his flesh? Beyond any doubt. It's there in black on white to read. 2 Cor. 12:7. Does this equate to possession? Never. It does equate though when we read that 'temptation' was in his flesh, from Gal. 3:13-4, that his flesh was in opposition to and against the Spirit from Gal. 5:17, that "lustful thoughts" were in his own mind, from Romans 7:7-13. That 'evil' was present with him, from Romans 7:21. That the sin (sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8) that was "NO MORE I" was in his own flesh.

Does any of this equate to "possession?" Never. Not in a million years could we derive that sight from Paul's statements.

Do I think Adam was exempted from any of the same? Never. It went down with Adam just like it goes down for everyone else, other than God Himself in the flesh.

But it's real difficulty to actually figure out what your position is, since your word choices leave a whole lot to be desired.

Again, mere assertions. IF you want to counter with scripture, then counter. These declarative forms of hollow victory are meaningless assertions. I have put scriptural facts for view on the table. Bring your wares from the same source, THE WORD. Then we'll talk rather than "assert." If in your mind, you think my position crazy, when you inserted your "possession" imagination as my position, then it was your insertion that is the crazy one. Not my place.

 

[smaller]

This gets repeatedly claimed, but absolutely NO evidence from Scripture.

Show WHY this did not apply to Adam. I've already cited every Word, yes, every Word of God applies to man. And Adam is certainly included in that category. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

 

[JLB]

So says you. Jesus told us what happens in Mark 4:15. I accept this happened immediately when God Spoke into that formed dust. You don't. So, there is the isolation. My position doesn't provide that isolation from Adam's creation. Your position does. Hence, your position can not stand under Jesus' Dictates of Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, applying "every Word" to Adam.

So say's the account that the Lord left for us as a witness of His creation of all things including Mankind.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31

God called what He created very good, which included Adam and Eve.

There is no sin or evil mentioned being in what God created, whether in the earth or in Adam.

God blessed His good creation.


Please provide the verse contained within this account of God's creation, whereby there was sin or evil created by God whether in Adam or in Eve.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Your positions see sin only as an external matter of action. Scripture doesn't. Again, a simple difference. Evil is present "within" us.

Go ahead and point out the sin or evil "within" Adam or Eve, that God created "within" them, on the day he created them, both male and female, in this biblical account of His creation of Adam and Eve.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31



JLB

 

[JLB]

Wasn't it our Father who planted the TWO Trees in the garden of Eden?

No.

Who do you think created the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

The Son of God.

Didn't He tell Adam he could freely eat from the Tree of Life?

Yes.


Sin is disobedience to God.

Adam disobeyed the Lord.

Through this disobedience, Satan usurped the dominion that had been given to mankind, because Adam obeyed Satan.

Your master is the one you obey... whether sin that leads to death, or obedience that leads to righteousness.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Do you believe the Lord created evil or sin within Adam on the day he was created?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Satan and the Beast are contained in the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil that God

Please provide the scripture that teaches us Satan and the beast are contained in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Said before, tell me why you think Mark 4:15 didn't transpire.

Of course all verses have occurred. Why would anyone think it relates to Adam's creation?

Man was the last creation in the order. The "beasts" were created prior to. Gen. 1:24. And we should not see that as just beasts physically apparent.

Creation order is irrelevant. What is meant by 'beasts' in quotes. And the last sentence makes no sense. Please re-arrange or re-phrase.

I do not believe the serpent was visible. Just as it is not visible today.

Irrelevant.

Prove that Mark 4:15 didn't happen. Jesus said it does happen. That settles it for me.

Prove that the verse applied to Adam at his creation.

Mark 4:15-16
Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

The verse was said in a parable. Jesus described 4 different kind of people in that parable. What makes anyone think Adam belonged to any of the 4 groups?

Since it is unlikely you have much scriptural basis of understandings, and instead posture Hollywood false depictions, it shows you know little of how "the tempter" operates.

This ad hominem only reveals how shallow your own position is and the fact that it can't be defended from Scripture.

I've already "detailed" by scripture, how and why it did happen.

By that, you mean you cut and pasted some verses, totally out of context and totally unrelated. Got it.

If you want to go back and pick up the trail and provide scriptural counters, fine. I'm citing that Mark 4:15 happened.

Did all of Jesus' parables happen? Do you even know what a parable is?

Did Paul have a messenger of Satan in his flesh? Beyond any doubt.

Paul called it a thorn.

It's there in black on white to read. 2 Cor. 12:7. Does this equate to possession? Never. It does equate though when we read that 'temptation' was in his flesh, from Gal. 3:13-4, that his flesh was in opposition to and against the Spirit from Gal. 5:17, that "lustful thoughts" were in his own mind, from Romans 7:7-13. That 'evil' was present with him, from Romans 7:21. That the sin (sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8) that was "NO MORE I" was in his own flesh.

Since your descriptions are so vague, it's really hard to know what is meant in your posts.

Do I think Adam was exempted from any of the same?

God's original creation of man was good. Not evil. There was no evil in him. Your opinion changes nothing.

It went down with Adam just like it goes down for everyone else, other than God Himself in the flesh.

You've failed to prove your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Show WHY this did not apply to Adam. I've already cited every Word, yes, every Word of God applies to man. And Adam is certainly included in that category. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

You've not shown that it did. The burden of proof is on you. And what you've cited isn't any kind of proof at all. In fact, you've ignored the events in Genesis 1.

 

[JLB]

If the Lord hasn't taught you the deeper knowledge that is necessary to understand what Satan and the Beast is, then you're not ready for this knowledge.

The discussion, and question was not about what Satan is.

I simple asked you to provide the scriptures that teach us Satan was contained within the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Do you believe Satan was in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil when God created the tree?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe everything that was delivered to me from our Father via His Holy Spirit. I don't believe the interpretations of man.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, being the Son of God.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


and again

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe everything that was delivered to me from our Father via His Holy Spirit. I don't believe the interpretations of man.

You speak personally to the Holy Spirit?
I don't agree with you because He's been telling me something different.

I believe I'M right because I read the words in the O.T. and N.T. and I take them at face value.
It seems to me that YOU are adding words and changing what is written in the Word of God.

If you make a statement, please support it with scripture.
Where does it say the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil contained satan within?

So, are you saying that if I have KNOWLEDGE of evil, I have satan IN me??

Wondering

 

[JLB]

If the Lord hasn't taught you the deeper knowledge that is necessary to understand what Satan and the Beast is, then you're not ready for this knowledge. A Bible cannot speak or understand who is reading it and taking it's words and using them for their own selfish benefit. There are millions of false prophets using the words of the Bible without the Bible knowing the words are being used to deceive God's people with.

Only the Lord knows who stole His words and using them for their benefit. I know what the Lord knows about those who are influenced by Satan and the Beast.

Those who deceive God's people, with "extra biblical knowledge"; knowledge that is not contained within the scriptures, nor found in the scriptures, will be punished as false teachers if they don't repent.

Leading God's people astray is a serious transgression, that could cause a person to lose their salvation, if they don't return to the truth.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21

A brother in Christ, who wanders from the truth, is called a sinner and is in danger of eternal death.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe everything that was deliv.ered to me from our Father via His Holy Spirit. I don't believe the interpretations of man.

Men wrote the N.T.
If we cannot believe the interpretations of man, as you proclaim above,
then we cannot trust the bible.

If we cannot trust the Apostles, WHO can we trust??

1 John 1:1-5

Wondering

 

[JLB]

There is a reason our Father told Adam NOT TO EAT from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil

Yes.

The reason was, God only wanted mankind to learn from Him the way Enoch and Abraham learned from Him, which was to receive the knowledge of God with life.

The Lord doesn't want us to learn from any other source than Him... man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
Deuteronomy 8:3



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a reason our Father told Adam NOT TO EAT from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Eve ate from and was deceived by the Serpent ( Satan ). Once Eve was deceived by Satan, all her thoughts started coming from what she ate of in the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then she spoke to Adam and deceived Adam with her voice that came from Satan. Adam began listening to the voice of Eve and that's when the voice of the Lord ( Tree of Life ) was rejected by Adam. Adam begin eating from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil that contained all the thoughts and visible things known as Satan ( Lucifer, or the Devil ). Ever since then, the offspring of Adam and Eve kept eating of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil with Satan totally filling their minds with good and evil thoughts including good and evil things in the world they were experiencing with their created senses.

It took the plan of God to reveal the Tree of Life through the testimonies of His prophets and saints. During the 1,000 year reign of Christ which is ending very soon, God revealed to us exactly what the Tree of Life is and how it was used to convert His thoughts into the invisible thoughts and visible world that we created beings experience.

Psalm 33
8: Let all the earth fear the LORD, let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!
9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood forth.

This is an interesting story.
Could you please tell me where in the bible I could find this statement of yours:

God revealed to us exactly what the Tree of Life is and how it was used to convert His thoughts into the invisible thoughts and visible world that we created beings experience.

Oh. And could you also tell me WHEN our flesh gets burned up and only our spirit remains -
as you stated in a different post..


Wondering

 

[JLB]

By whom do these false prophets get punished by?

The Lord.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Doom of False Teachers
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:1-4


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

When two are in disagreement, then Satan and the Beast are involved.

Seems to me satan and the beast are involved in lots of things here on earth.

But you didn't answer any of my questions.

Also, please explain Mathew 18:15-17

It's speaking of someone who has sinned. If we should bring a sinner to the church, as per Jesus' instructions, should we also not bring a disagreement to the church?

I don't know of any church that teaches what you are saying here on this forum.

John 17:17
Jesus is stating that we are to be sanctified in the truth and that THY word is truth - the Word of God.
We are not to add anything to the Word of God since doing so would change what God intended.

Revelation 22:18 We are not to add words of prophecy, or Law, or Grace, or anything else. WE are not the creators of the Word of God.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a reason Jesus said this to God's disciples who were listening to the Gospel of God that Jesus was preaching to them;

John 14
11: Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.
12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.
13: Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son;
14: if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
15: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16: And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,
17: even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
25: "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.
26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Once you're anointed by the Holy Spirit sent from our Father, He will teach you all the knowledge necessary to understand all the prophecies that were written by God's prophets of the OT.

1 John 2
27: but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

I have been listening to what the Holy Spirit delivers into my mind for 37 years now. He's been my teacher since then.

The problem with verse 26 and 27 is that WE are not allowed to make up our own theology.
Exegesis must be used.
NOTHING can be added to what is written in the Old and New Testaments.
This is very dangerous since ANYONE can say ANYTHING they think they understand.
Theologians have studied the bible and its words for 2 thousand years.
I believe we should pay heed to them and not make up our own biblical stories.

Please show the scripture where this is said:

God revealed to us exactly what the Tree of Life is and how it was used to convert His thoughts into the invisible thoughts and visible world that we created beings experience.

I also asked you in post 564.
Thanks for your reply to this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Remember, God told Adam that if he eats from the forbidden fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would surely die. This means the visible flesh of man will perish because man stopped eating from the Tree of Life, which is the voice that commanded Adam to eat freely from. God wanted Adam to OBEY His voice where the commandments came from. This is the Tree of Life that God was referring to where all the knowledge ( God's stored commandments, or thoughts ) are contained.

God had His prophets write this:

Deuteronomy 28:
1: And if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments which I command you this day, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
2: And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 28
15: “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments which I command you this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.
16: Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
17: Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading-trough.
18: cursed shall be the fruit of your body, and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle, and the young of your flock.
19: Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20: “the Lord will send upon you curses, confusion, and frustration, in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your doings, because you have forsaken me.
21: The Lord will make the pestilence cleave to you until he has consumed you off the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
22: The Lord will smite you with consumption, and with fever, inflammation, and fiery heat, and with drought, and with blasting, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish.
23: And the heavens over your head shall be brass, and the earth under you shall be iron.
24: The Lord will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down upon you until you are destroyed.

61: Every sickness also, and every affliction which is not recorded in the book of this law, the LORD will bring upon you, until you are destroyed.
62: Whereas you were as the stars of heaven for multitude, you shall be left few in number; because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God.
63: And as the LORD took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the LORD will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you; and you shall be plucked off the land which you are entering to take possession of it.

This is why I listen to the voice ( Holy Spirit ) of the Lord ( Father ) and obey all His commandments.

However, God chooses those He needs during this first age to reveal the Tree of Life to. This is only a temporary generation of people for God to teach us who we are and how He created us. Now that we had the Tree of Life revealed to us through the testimonies of Jesus, Peter, Timothy, Paul and all the rest of us saints that God chose during this 1,000 year reign of Christ, we are close to ending all this with a total destruction of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God gave man a visible flesh, visible world with good and evil images and good and evil thoughts. This has to be destroyed to make way for the New Heaven and Earth where all God's people will be eating freely from the Tree of Life. The Tree of the knowledge of good and evil contained Satan and the Beast that was used to teach man how to build false gods with his human hands.

In Paradise, man will never be influenced by the Beast again to work with his human hands and be enslaved by the earthly Kings who ordered those false gods to be built according to the God's plan to reveal His Tree of Life at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

You're very good at posting a lot of scripture
but it doesn't support your statements, which is what it should do.

For instance, you say that:
This means the visible flesh of man will perish because man stopped eating from the Tree of Life,

Please show from scripture when man STARTED eating from the Tree of Life.
Please explain Genesis 3:22
Please note in this verse the tiny word "and take ALSO from the Tree of Life".
This means that they had NEVER eaten from the Tree of Life.
If you believe they did, please show the scripture.

Thanks.

Wondering