Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[FreeGrace]

You are convinced that everyone in the faith is born again. Not the case. The letters to the churches are warnings about where people are seated in the faith.

What are these warnings about "people are seated in the faith", and and wha does that mean? And where is your evidence about those "in the faith" may not be born again?

Warnings of being cast out because of the path they are taking.

Why the default to think that being 'cast out' refers to headed for hell??

Ephesus - Revelation 2:5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place

Clearly we differ on what the statement means.

Smyrna - 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

So, to take this one literally, means we have to overcome (effort, works, etc) in order to avoid the lake of fire. Nonsense.

Thyatira - 2:22-23 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Sardis - 3:4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

Philadelphia - 3:7 These are words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. These are Born Agains.

Laodicea - 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm - neither cold nor hot - I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

In ALL the letters to the 7 churches, the subject is being faithful and being rewarded for it. Or loss of reward for not being faithful.

 

[LovethroughDove]

In ALL the letters to the 7 churches, the subject is being faithful and being rewarded for it. Or loss of reward for not being faithful.

Why did he say "spit you out of my mouth."? Revelation 3:16

That is a reward or not reward?

 

[LovethroughDove]

I can agree with you Freegrace when he says "no one will take your crown", like for Philadelphia. That is a reward, but there are things mentioned to the churches that are not reward related.

 

[MarkT]

Well, I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you. But I explained WHY Jesus wasn't referring to those from v.30-32 when he was quoted from v.44 and v.45.

It seems what makes more sense to you is that while John described "many" as believing in Christ, Jesus contradicts what John said.

Now, how does that make any sense?

I've already explained exactly WHY His statements in v.44 and 45 were NOT directed to those who had believed in Him in v.30-31, but to the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees.

If there is disagreement, please address the verses I used to support my claim.


Are you seriously claiming that the crowd were fallen angels??? How does that make any sense? It doesn't.

And devils DON'T believe. They simply know. From experience (sight). Not from faith.


Sure. They were unbelievers, and NOT those referenced to in v.30-31.

John directly said they put their faith in Him. If that doesn't move you, I guess you're just not going to be moved.

But, I believe what John wrote. Those in v.30-31 believed and were saved. From v.33 to the end of the chapter is directed to the unbelieving Jews prior to v.30.

He was not speaking to a crowd of Pharisees. Jesus was at the Jews' feast of Tabernacles teaching the people (Jews) in the temple. According to John, 'as he spoke many believed in him'. Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, 'If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.' But they didn't understand. And this is because they were devils, according to Jesus.

Where does John say they put their faith in him? Where does John say anything about being saved?

Why doesn't it make sense? Many believed in him when he said he was from above, then after he said Abraham wasn't their father, (they were of their father the devil), they took up stones to throw at him.

You seem to know a lot about devils

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Or what, specifically? Where does the Bible say anything about losing salvation or eternal life if one doesn't?"
I've already explained what a "litotes" is. So your continued ignorance of what it is and how it is used is your own problem completely.

Now, where is the evidence that anyone HAS EVER been "blotted out" of the book of life?

Please provide clear evidence for this outrageous and WRONG claim, or apologize for it, as it is totally untrue.

I am well aware of ALL the warnings of Scripture. It's your side that repeatedly misunderstands and twists the warning into loss of salvation.


As I requested before, please provide any clear Scripture that says that anyone HAS EVER been blotted out of the book of life, or can be for any reason.
I'm not interested in opinions, guesswork, or anything other than clear evidence from Scripture, which has NOT been provided yet.


I say that you don't know what Jesus even said.

Jesus warns us...

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;


Are you saying it is impossible to be blotted out of the book of life?

1. Yes, its possible to be blotted out of the book of life.
2. No, it's impossible to be blotted out of the book of life.

I say, with all boldness: Yes, according to Jesus, it is very possible for a person to get blotted out of the book of Life.


Can you answer a simple question Freegrace?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Nobody teaches perfect doctrine.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Jihn 6:6

I'd suggest defilement is a universal fact.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:21.

Jesus taught perfect doctrine.

He taught His disciples perfect doctrine.

It's recorded for us in the New testament.


This is why those who teach "false doctrine" are condemned, because they lead the innocent into error, which is putting a stumbling block, before the babes in Christ.

These false teachings come from a mind and a conscience that is defiled.

10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
Titus 1:10-16


Here are some key phrases from this passage:

• but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
• They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
• This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,.

Those who teach these things, which are contrary to the Apostle Doctrine, are disobedient and abominable.
The reason for these who teach things that they should not, is because they are defiled in mind and conscience.
The purpose of rebuking these that teach things which they should not, is that they may become sound in the faith.

abominable: Those who are abominable will have their part in the lake of fire.

unbelieving: Those who are unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire.



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine.
Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16


JLB

 

[MarkT]

Not true. Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, beginning in John 8:12. Jesus continues to address these Pharisees as seen in the pronoun "they" in v.19, "them" in v.21, "the Jews" in v.22, "they" in v.25, v.27. Then, John is very clear about to WHOM Jesus is speaking in v.30 and v.31 by the phrases "many put their faith in Him" and "to the Jews who had believed Him". These are John signature phrases for indicating people that are saved by faith in Him.

Then, in v.33 we find again the pronoun "they", which refers back to the original "they" as found in the above noted verses. So, even though Jesus addressed the new believers in v.31 and 32, it was the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees that responded to what Jesus said to the new believers. And we know this from the fact of what Jesus said about the "they" or "them" in 8:45: "Yet because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me".

So, those to whom He addressed from v.33 forward cannot be the same people that believed in v.30-31.

I think you're right.

Since Jesus was speaking to a mix of people, some who said he was a prophet, some who said this is the Christ and some who wanted to kill him, it could be the Jews who wanted to kill him who answered him. That would make more sense. Jesus' answer to the Pharisees, then his answer to the Jews who asked him Who are you? and then his saying to the many who believed as he spoke, to whom he said, If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.' and then the Jews who wanted to kill him answered him.

Still John 8:31 says he was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him and they would logically be the Jews who answered him.

 

[FreeGrace]

Why did he say "spit you out of my mouth."? Revelation 3:16

He didn't like how they tasted. Aren't you aware of "figures of speech"? He was communicating disgust and disappointment with that church.

How would one make the leap from the figure of speech "spitting out of the mouth" to "casting into hell"? Walk me through it, please.

That is a reward or not reward?

Now, why would anyone think this is a reward? This figure of speech isn't about reward or loss of reward, but attitude of Jesus towards that church. Which would lead to discipline.

 

[FreeGrace]

I can agree with you Freegrace when he says "no one will take your crown", like for Philadelphia. That is a reward, but there are things mentioned to the churches that are not reward related.

And there are none that are related to loss of salvation.

 

[chessman]

Jesus warns us...

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

Warning??? This is a peaceful (and sure) promise of eternal life.

People who have overcome unbelief are promised to be clothed in white garments and to never perish. We will NOT be hurt by death ever again.

Revelation 2:11 (NASB) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’​

Same message.

These gifts of God demonstrate His love for us. Jesus Means to give us courage by your so-called 'warning' verse. We have overcome because He has.

John 16:33 (NASB)These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.” ​

What was spoken so that we may have peace and courage?

1. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

2.
1 John 5:5 (NASB)
Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

3. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Simply three different ways to say the same promise.

 

[FreeGrace]

He was not speaking to a crowd of Pharisees.

Anyone can read for themselves exactly who Jesus was speaking to.

Jesus was at the Jews' feast of Tabernacles teaching the people (Jews) in the temple. According to John, 'as he spoke many believed in him'.

For THAT reason alone, they were saved. Period. End of discussion.

Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, 'If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.' But they didn't understand.

Just an assumption, and faulty understanding of the dynamics of the passage, which I specifically pointed out who the 'they' and 'them' were. Different from those who believed.

As I pointed out before, v.33 is the reaction of the unbelieving Jews to what Jesus said to the believing Jews. In fact, John makes no indication that the believing Jews ever said anything.

And why would anyone continue to pit what John said about a certain group with what Jesus said about that same group? That makes no sense. John said they believed. Yet your claim is that Jesus said they didn't believe.

So, who ya gonna believe? John or Jesus?

The ONLY reasonable undestanding is that there were many that did believe and were saved, and all of Jesus further comments were to those who didn't believe. As Jesus specifically noted in v.45.

And this is because they were devils, according to Jesus.

The unbelievers were, sure.

Where does John say they put their faith in him?

In black and white in the TEXT. v.30 and v.31. Plain as day.

Where does John say anything about being saved?

Oh, just a few places in John:
John 1:12, 3:15,16,18,36, 4:14, 6:40,47, 8:24, 10:9, 11:25,26, and 20:31.

Why doesn't it make sense? Many believed in him when he said he was from above, then after he said Abraham wasn't their father, (they were of their father the devil), they took up stones to throw at him.

What doesn't make sense is to claim that those John said BELIEVED IN HIM are the same people Jesus called devils and didn't believe in Him. If you don't see this very obvious contradiction, I guess there is nothing that will help.

You seem to know a lot about devils

I read the Bible a lot. otoh, it seems you don't.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus warns us...

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

Are you saying it is impossible to be blotted out of the book of life?

1. Yes, its possible to be blotted out of the book of life.
2. No, it's impossible to be blotted out of the book of life.

I say, with all boldness: Yes, according to Jesus, it is very possible for a person to get blotted out of the book of Life.

Can you answer a simple question Freegrace?JLB

No, Jesus NEVER made that suggestion. But since you've repeatedly ignored, rejected, dismissed and otherwise not paid attention to what a figure of speech called a litotes is, there is no use for further discussion.

Google the word, learn a bit. Then get back to me.

Please show me ANY verse that actually says that someone has been "blotted out of the book of life" for any reason. That's your only defense. Where is it?

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you're right.

Since Jesus was speaking to a mix of people, some who said he was a prophet, some who said this is the Christ and some who wanted to kill him, it could be the Jews who wanted to kill him who answered him. That would make more sense. Jesus' answer to the Pharisees, then his answer to the Jews who asked him Who are you? and then his saying to the many who believed as he spoke, to whom he said, If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.' and then the Jews who wanted to kill him answered him.

Still John 8:31 says he was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him and they would logically be the Jews who answered him.

Then I would be wrong. But it was the unbelieving Jews who reacted to what Jesus told the believing Jews.

What Jesus said in v.31 was an encouragement to new believers. But the unbelieving Jews reacted to what He said to the believing Jews.

The proof is that Jesus called those who reacted in v.33 as devils and that they did NOT believe in Him, contrary to what John said about those who believed in Him.

 

[chessman]

What Jesus said in v.31 was an encouragement to new believers.

True. But believers in what, exactly???

Not in His being Christ (Messiah) and in His death, burial and resurrection for the remission of sins as that hadn't happened yet. How do we know they didn't believe the Gospel??? Beside the fact that His death, burial and ressurection hadn't happened yet, Jesus says they did not know (quite yet) that He was The Son of Man (Messiah of God) but would "When He was lifted up"!

John 8:27 (LEB) They did not know that he was speaking to them about the Father. Then Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will recognize that I am he, and I do nothing from myself, but just as the Father taught me, I say these things. And the one who sent me is with me.

​

It is the Truth of the Gospel that sets men free, not believing something less.
Muslims believe in Jesus, they don't believe the Gospel though.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, Jesus NEVER made that suggestion. But since you've repeatedly ignored, rejected, dismissed and otherwise not paid attention to what a figure of speech called a litotes is, there is no use for further discussion.

Google the word, learn a bit. Then get back to me.

Please show me ANY verse that actually says that someone has been "blotted out of the book of life" for any reason. That's your only defense. Where is it?

FreeGrace:

You're speaking about this statement regarding the litotes (statement by JLB)
JLB said: ↑
Jesus warns us...

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

Are you saying it is impossible to be blotted out of the book of life?

1. Yes, its possible to be blotted out of the book of life.
2. No, it's impossible to be blotted out of the book of life.

I say, with all boldness: Yes, according to Jesus, it is very possible for a person to get blotted out of the book of Life.

Can you answer a simple question Freegrace?JLB

Help me out here: WHERE is the litotes in his statement???

And while I'm here:

Please read his post again:
He who OVERCOMES shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life.

If one says that he WILL NOT blot out a name, it also means that HE CAN blot out a name.
One does not know if he OVERCOMES till the very end of life.

From Biblehub commentary: Revelation 3:5

I will not blot out . . .—The negative is emphatic, “I will in no wise blot out.” This figure of speech—a book and the blotting out—was ancient. (See Deuteronomy 32:32; Psalm 69:21; Daniel 12:1; comp. also Luke 10:20; Philippians 4:3.) The name shall not be erased from the roll or register of the citizens of heaven. “A process of erasure is ever going on, besides the process of entering. When the soul has finally taken its choice for evil, when Christ is utterly denied on earth and trodden under foot, when the defilement of sin has become inveterate and indelible, then the pen is drawn through the guilty name, then the inverted style smears the wax over the unworthy characters; and when the owner of that name applies afterwards for admittance, the answer is, ‘I know thee not; depart hence, thou willing worker and lover of iniquity’” (Dr. Vaughan).

As I've always said, it is OUR choice to remain in the Book of Life or be blotted out.

Wondering

 

[MarkT]

Then I would be wrong. But it was the unbelieving Jews who reacted to what Jesus told the believing Jews.

What Jesus said in v.31 was an encouragement to new believers. But the unbelieving Jews reacted to what He said to the believing Jews.

The proof is that Jesus called those who reacted in v.33 as devils and that they did NOT believe in Him, contrary to what John said about those who believed in Him.

Logically it doesn't follow. For some reason John wants us to know Jesus was speaking to those who had believed in him. So it follows that those who had believed in Jesus answered Jesus. Then John wants us to know what Jesus said to them. Jesus said, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples" To what purpose does he say if you continue in my word? Why does he admonish those who believed in him? What would be the purpose of John wanting us to know that they had believed in him?

This saying is a problem for OSAS - saying that if they continued in his word, they would know the truth and the truth would set them free, but many of his disciples had already fallen away because they could not continue in his word. John 6:60-65

 

[GodsGrace]

True. But believers in what, exactly???

Not in His being Christ (Messiah) and in His death, burial and resurrection for the remission of sins as that hadn't happened yet. How do we know they didn't believe the Gospel??? Beside the fact that His death, burial and ressurection hadn't happened yet, Jesus says they did not know (quite yet) that He was The Son of Man (Messiah of God) but would "When He was lifted up"!

John 8:27 (LEB) They did not know that he was speaking to them about the Father. Then Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will recognize that I am he, and I do nothing from myself, but just as the Father taught me, I say these things. And the one who sent me is with me.

​

It is the Truth of the Gospel that sets men free, not believing something less.
Muslims believe in Jesus, they don't believe the Gospel though.

Excellent point Chessman.
It is often not mentioned.

The problem is that when Jesus is lifted up, some recognize Him and some don't.
Some recognize Him and are all fired up for their new faith. It could last months and even years.
And then one day they no longer believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for their sins and that He was resurrected from death.
It is at this point that they can no longer be saved because they no longer believe what must be believed to have salvation. They once again become like the heathen.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Logically it doesn't follow. For some reason John wants us to know Jesus was speaking to those who had believed in him. So it follows that those who had believed in Jesus answered Jesus. Then John wants us to know what Jesus said to them. Jesus said, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples" To what purpose does he say if you continue in my word? Why does he admonish those who believed in him? What would be the purpose of John wanting us to know that they had believed in him?

This saying is a problem for OSAS - saying that if they continued in his word, they would know the truth and the truth would set them free, but many of his disciples had already fallen away because they could not continue in his word. John 6:60-65

Hi Mark,
The N.T. is full of warnings to CONTINUE, to FOLLOW, to ADHERE TO, to PERSEVERE.
You're point is right on. WHY continue to warn, time and time again, IF IT WERE NOT IMPORTANT!!

Ditto for the warning not to FALL AWAY.

Hebrews 3:6
Hebrews 3:14
Hebrews 10:23
Galatians 6:9
Mathew 24:13
Romans 11:19-22

and many more...

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Warning??? This is a peaceful (and sure) promise of eternal life.

People who have overcome unbelief are promised to be clothed in white garments and to never perish. We will NOT be hurt by death ever again.

Revelation 2:11 (NASB) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

Jesus encourages believers to overcome the temptation to deny Him, to turn away from Him, to renounce Him, in the face of persecution and death.

10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’ Revelation 2:10-11


Same thing here:

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

"But"... reveals the alternative to overcoming.

again

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Revelation 21:27


It is also interesting to note that those who twist and change the words of this prophecy, so that the meaning is diluted and changed to mean something else, are put in the same category as Christians who are liars.


18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19


How can anyone be taken away from the book of life, who was not first "in" the book of Life.


Do you believe a person who is "in" the book of Life, then who's name is blotted out of the book of Life, or who is "taken away" from the book of Life, still somehow "has eternal life?

• Those who are written in the book of Life; have eternal life.
• Those who are removed from the book of Life: No longer have eternal life.

JLB

 

[JLB]

No, Jesus NEVER made that suggestion. But since you've repeatedly ignored, rejected, dismissed and otherwise not paid attention to what a figure of speech called a litotes is, there is no use for further discussion.

Google the word, learn a bit. Then get back to me.

Please show me ANY verse that actually says that someone has been "blotted out of the book of life" for any reason. That's your only defense. Where is it?

Your going to have to do better than state your opinion, which comes from "Google", in the face of the words of Jesus Christ!


10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’ Revelation 2:10-11


Same thing here:

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fireand brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

"But"... reveals the alternative to overcoming.

again

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Revelation 21:27


It is also interesting to note that those who twist and change the words of this prophecy, so that the meaning is diluted and changed to mean something else, are put in the same category as Christians who are liars.


18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19


How can anyone be taken away from the book of life, who was not first "in" the book of Life.


Do you believe a person who is "in" the book of Life, then who's name is blotted out of the book of Life, or who is "taken away" from the book of Life, still somehow "has eternal life?

• Those who are written in the book of Life; have eternal life.
• Those who are removed from the book of Life: No longer have eternal life.

JLB