Are you OK with ABORTIONS?

[evenifigoalone]

I myself do not want children (though it's certainly possible I may change my mind one day), and should I ever marry I will use preventative birth control. (My family has a history of blood clotting conditions, this is another, important reason to limit the amount of pregnancies. I don't get the argument that sexual relations between a married couple are only for procreation and nothing else, that is simply untrue and there are scientific studies about the benefits it provides that have nothing to do with children.)
But if I ever end up with a child anyway, I will definitely respect his or her right to life. Once another life exists, it's simply not for us to make decisions such as whether it should exist or not. The only exception, imo, is the life of the mother being at risk, in which case one of them surviving is better than both dying.

That's my take anyway.

 

[Classik]

Is there any difference between abortion and murder?

 

[Wrg1405]

Taking any form of birth control is not operating (walking) by faith. It is sin...the works of the flesh. In other words you think you know better than Gods plan for your life.

Ok given your quote about Onan, as I understand it he wasn't punished because he withdrew but for the reasons why.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you in that taking any type of birth control is a sin. I am 48 and my wife is 45. We have 4 kids, the eldest is 20 and youngest 13. My wife takes birth control, so according to your comment she is sinning and therefore I am as I'm complicit with her.

So to me your comment is in a sense judgmental on me and my wife and anyone who uses some kind of birth control. We agreed on birth control, one that after much research and thought and prayer was one that as Papa Zoom correctly states above is not abortive. So we are happy with our choice.

The truth is that every life from the beginning of time has been given by God, regardless of the circumstances.
And I think God gives life even when birth control is used.

Furthermore I beleive every aborted child is in heaven. I agree with Papa that when the sperm and egg meet and fertilisation takes place then life is formed. Now whether that life is aborted medically or via abortive contraceptive that life, that child is in heaven.

You mention works of the flesh and birth control is a work of the flesh.

Galatians 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Can't see birth control in the above so maybe you could expand why you think it is a work of the flesh.

Also we know

Galatians 5:22-25

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

My wife takes birth control yet I find her manifesting the fruit of the Spirit, she is an amazing Godly woman. Passionate about Jesus and not afraid to tell others about Jesus. She walks according to the Spirit and not the flesh.

But as I read what you say she is walking according to the flesh and is sinning.

If I've got you wrong please let me know.

 

[jasonc]

Taking any form of birth control is not operating (walking) by faith. It is sin...the works of the flesh. In other words you think you know better than Gods plan for your life.

What if you have a genetic history of diseases that don't prevent you from having kids ,but cause birth defects,say epilepsy, a cogenial disease,etc.oh that fits my loins.
Sometimes people rather not have kids but will still have sex, I woukdnt abort a child if he or she is meant to be.however, I choose as my wife choose not to .she doesn't have a uterus.it's not a sin to refuse to marry,nor have kids.Paul said I would you all be as me.single.can't have kids if you want to remain faithful without marriage unless you adopt

 

[Wrg1405]

What do you consider birth control?

Is a condom birth control?
Is withdrawing birth control?

 

[iLOVE]

Is there any difference between abortion and murder?

The Apostle Paul makes it very clear in Romans 8:10 that the physical body, mind / intellect, and the heart (which is evil - Jeremiah 17:9) has been rendered helpless because of the original sin; consequently, the Believer trying to overcome by willpower presents a fruitless task. Only the Holy Spirit can mortify the deeds of the flesh and make us what we ought to be (Romans 8:13). This means we cannot do it ourselves. Once again, He performs all that He does within the confines of the Finished Work of Christ (Romans 8:2).

If a Christian will and their efforts to live for God is in anything except Christ and the Cross, i.e., Finished Work, The Blood of Jesus (Romans 8:2), Satan can override your will and force you to do things you don't want to do and trying not to do (Ephesians 6:12). Jesus said deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow me (Luke 9:23).

Remember our bodies are dead and useless to God. The heart is prone to wander away from God's love and eat from "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." The reason why the body is dead is because of the effects of the fall has made us totally incapable of yielding spiritual obedience on a regular basis (Jeremiah 13:23). So there must be a source outside of myself that helps me to enter into sanctification which is the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13).

The truth is the entirety of the system of this world is evil. Paul said:

"Who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the Will of God and our Father" (Galatians 1:4).

There is only one solution, as it regards this foe, and that is "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified," and our Faith in that Finished Work.

If a Christian Faith is not maintained in Christ and His Finished work the works of the flesh will manifest as mentioned In Gal.5; Fornication, adultery, same sex marriage, homosexuality, masturbation, pornography, birth control, abortion, and the like are the works of the flesh...which is sin.

 

[Free]

Yes, it's still an abortion. And yes it still kills an innocent human life. But the question is one of justification. If indeed the very life of the mother is in question due to a problem pregnancy, termination is justified to save the life of the mother. As I said, this is very rare. But we know women do die in childbirth. It happens. There are situations where the life of the mother is in jeopardy and medical science cannot solve the issue apart from termination. This, and only this situation, is a morally acceptable reason to abort a pregnancy.

I believe that ectopic pregnancies are the only exception. Even if the mother's life is at risk but the baby's is not, I favour letting "nature" take its course. Both situations are, as you say, very rare.

 

[Free]

Is there any difference between abortion and murder?

No.

 

[Wrg1405]

Can I throw something into the mix here?

Sorry if it detracts from the OP.

We are sat here discussing abortion, if it is ok or not, when does life begin, reasons for contraception and if it is right or wrong.

To me we are missing the bigger picture.

What about the ladies who have had an abortion?
What about the guilt they carry around for the rest of their lives?
The condemnation they feel?
Also fathers/men who have no say when a lady decides to abort a baby? Yes it does happen.

Is my sin different from the lady who has an abortion?
Am I any better?

I think not, in the eyes of God sin is sin. It needs dealing with. It has been dealt with.
Jesus took all our sin upon him and it's forgiven. When we come to him he not only wants to release us from that sin but also it's consequences.

We as his disciples must be like him.

 

[iLOVE]

What if you have a genetic history of diseases that don't prevent you from having kids ,but cause birth defects,say epilepsy, a cogenial disease,etc.oh that fits my loins.
Sometimes people rather not have kids but will still have sex, I woukdnt abort a child if he or she is meant to be.however, I choose as my wife choose not to .she doesn't have a uterus.it's not a sin to refuse to marry,nor have kids.Paul said I would you all be as me.single.can't have kids if you want to remain faithful without marriage unless you adopt

The scripture says, "Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD." Jeremiah 17:5

 

[iLOVE]

Can I throw something into the mix here?

Sorry if it detracts from the OP.

We are sat here discussing abortion, if it is ok or not, when does life begin, reasons for contraception and if it is right or wrong.

To me we are missing the bigger picture.

What about the ladies who have had an abortion?
What about the guilt they carry around for the rest of their lives?
The condemnation they feel?
Also fathers/men who have no say when a lady decides to abort a baby? Yes it does happen.

Is my sin different from the lady who has an abortion?
Am I any better?

I think not, in the eyes of God sin is sin. It needs dealing with. It has been dealt with.
Jesus took all our sin upon him and it's forgiven. When we come to him he not only wants to release us from that sin but also it's consequences.

We as his disciples must be like him.

Understand Justification by Faith - Romans 3:23

This is why we must understand what justification is and why it is the first subject in the book of Romans. It lays down the foundation as I go through sanctification.

Justification gives me the ability to get back up from every failure no matter how many times and stand up and go through this process and learn it. Justification gives us a legal standing with God that is not cancelled because of the acts of sin. So if I fail at this same thing a thousand times, God forbid, I remain justified by faith (Romans 3:23); For I have kept the ways of the Lord (2 Samuel 22:22; Psalm 18:21; Romans 8:2). Remember, Jesus said, "I did not come to condemn (John 3:17)."

Justification is not what we do, and not what I am, and not what I worked for. It is what Jesus did and my faith in it that gives me the standing with God that I need to carry on my Christian experience. Sometime I do it well, and sometimes I do it not so well, but his justifying Grace will not fail unless my faith fails. It is just if I have never sinned and just if I have always obeyed (Romans 8:1; Romans 8:2).

 

[Wrg1405]

If a Christian Faith is not maintained in Christ and His Finished work the works of the flesh will manifest as mentioned In Gal.5; Fornication, adultery, same sex marriage, homosexuality, masturbation, pornography, birth control, abortion, and the like are the works of the flesh...which is sin.

Ok can you let me know the verses in Gal 5 that mention birth control and abortion

 

[iLOVE]

Ok can you let me know the verses in Gal 5 that mention birth control and abortion

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, frevellings, and such like:

 

[Wrg1405]

Understand Justification by Faith - Romans 3:23

This is why we must understand what justification is and why it is the first subject in the book of Romans. It lays down the foundation as I go through sanctification.

Justification gives me the ability to get back up from every failure no matter how many times and stand up and go through this process and learn it. Justification gives us a legal standing with God that is not cancelled because of the acts of sin. So if I fail at this same thing a thousand times, God forbid, I remain justified by faith (Romans 3:23); For I have kept the ways of the Lord (2 Samuel 22:22; Psalm 18:21; Romans 8:2). Remember, Jesus said, "I did not come to condemn (John 3:17)."

Justification is not what we do, and not what I am, and not what I worked for. It is what Jesus did and my faith in it that gives me the standing with God that I need to carry on my Christian experience. Sometime I do it well, and sometimes I do it not so well, but his justifying Grace will not fail unless my faith fails. It is just if I have never sinned and just if I have always obeyed (Romans 8:1; Romans 8:2).

Sorry mate your talking about justification.

I didn't address this in my post. I talked about us loving people who have the fallout as a result of abortions.

They may not know about justification, that's where we come in or should I say Jesus does.

 

[evenifigoalone]

What if you have a genetic history of diseases that don't prevent you from having kids ,but cause birth defects,say epilepsy, a cogenial disease,etc.oh that fits my loins.
Sometimes people rather not have kids but will still have sex, I woukdnt abort a child if he or she is meant to be.however, I choose as my wife choose not to .she doesn't have a uterus.it's not a sin to refuse to marry,nor have kids.Paul said I would you all be as me.single.can't have kids if you want to remain faithful without marriage unless you adopt

Paul also said it's better to marry than to burn with lust, too. So I don't think the Bible supports the idea that it's all about having babies. Or that if a married couple didn't want kids they should abstain entirely.

 

[iLOVE]

Sorry mate your talking about justification.

I didn't address this in my post. I talked about us loving people who have the fallout as a result of abortions.

They may not know about justification, that's where we come in or should I say Jesus does.

What about the ladies who have had an abortion?
What about the guilt they carry around for the rest of their lives?
The condemnation they feel?
Also fathers/men who have no say when a lady decides to abort a baby? Yes it does happen.

Is my sin different from the lady who has an abortion?
Am I any better?

I was addressing your statement with justification..

 

[th1b.taylor]

I have always opposed abortion even in the case of rape and incest. The life of a mother is an exception but this situation is so rare as to be nonexistent.

Papa, food for thought! Though never reported by the Liberal Media, women die from abortion also. I have a much narrower focus on when to Abort, if te Pregnancy is Tubal, then and only then must the birth of the Infant be Aborted for the safety of the Mother. As long as there has ben and for as long as the will be God in Heaven, death, any death, belong in His hands and not the hands of mankind.

As I said, food for thought.

 

[Wrg1405]

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, frevellings, and such like:

Can't see abortion.

The NKJV mentions murder, the NIC does not.

However to me given what you have said is irrelevant.
To me you are saying that any type of birth control is tantamount to murder is a sin and therefore anyone who uses birth control is a murderer?

Please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[th1b.taylor]

Lets not forget about birth control. Birth control is evil and a sin. Birth Control is anti-Baby and anti-Child. The purpose of birth control is to stop the life of an innocent baby from being born.

But Birth Control is not the issue of discussion here and will only muddy the water.

 

[Wrg1405]

But Birth Control is not the issue of discussion here and will only muddy the water.

I agree but it was bought up that if you take birth control then it is a sin.
That needs to be addressed