Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

[JLB]

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Yes, the evil present with us, that dwells in our flesh, is sin.

Sin desires to have dominion over us.


Here is what the scripture says, which you seem committed to try and change.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:20-23


The verse does not say, what you are attempting to teach God's people:

Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin Satan that dwells in me.


Changing the words of scripture, and substituting them for your own words is not of God.



JLB

 

[smaller]

The verse does not say, what you are attempting to teach God's people:

Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin Satan that dwells in me.

I'm only interested in the facts:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I appreciate that Paul stood where NO LIAR can enter. The facts above will stick in the craw of EVERY LIAR, EVERY TIME, and they can not say it, own it, speak it.

 

[JLB]

I'm only interested in the facts:

Here is the fact from the scriptures.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Romans 7:20


Can you acknowledge that is was sin that Paul dwelled in his flesh, and not Satan?



JLB

 

[JLB]

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Another fact that we must acknowledge.

A messenger of Satan was sent to buffet Paul, not dwell in his flesh.


Please stop changing the words of scripture.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Here is the fact from the scriptures.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Romans 7:20

Can you acknowledge that is was sin that Paul dwelled in his flesh, and not Satan?

JLB

Hmmm? I wonder WHO that could be?

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Face it JLB. Your story doesn't add up to the facts.

 

[Chopper]

You can spin Paul's words however you please.

I read flat out, Paul's own words, that in his flesh there was a messenger of Satan. 2 Cor. 12:7. You read that same scripture and outright DENY those words are even there.

Spin from there as you please. It was a REAL messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

Idioms won't make that fact go away and Satan and his messengers are

NOT IDIOMS, but REAL ENTITIES.

The Apostle Paul had a very unique experience after he had been transported to the realm of God where few have traveled. Because of this, he was not allowed to describe to us what he experienced. I know for a fact that on several occasions, I have, in the presence of another Brother, had a mighty visit from God's Spirit. As a result, I have had, for 40+ years, different physical trials. I haven't always been faithful in keeping those events secret and I paid a price for the pride that comes from the lust of the flesh.

One time, in the presence of a missionary Brother, the Holy Spirit came on me for about 10 minutes, seemed like a hour. After this experience, my Brother said "I wonder why God did that for you but not me. Later his jealous feelings toward me led to his departure from the ministry that I founded in Portland, Maine.

2Corinthians 12:7 "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure (ESV)....

Please note that there was a messenger of Satan. That, according to good Theologians, was a demon. Notice again that the "buffeting" was IN Paul's flesh. It seems to me that those who object to Smaller's interpretation of Satan or demon in Pauls flesh don't fully understand that where we see the activity of Satan toward a Believer, the very close attachment of sin is Satan.

Also, lets look at Romans chapter seven....
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

What smaller and I see is a very close attachment of sin and the author of sin, Satan. If you see sin, you see Satan. If you see Satan, you see sin. If sin is in us, Satan by attachment is in us. It's not that hard to realize this. Sin and Satan are one.

 

[JLB]

Please note that there was a messenger of Satan. That, according to good Theologians, was a demon. Notice again that the "buffeting" was IN Paul's flesh. It seems to me that those who object to Smaller's interpretation of Satan or demon in Pauls flesh don't fully understand that where we see the activity of Satan toward a Believer, the very close attachment of sin is Satan.

That's all great.

I think we all believe that God moves on people in different ways.

However, if we are honest about what the scripture actually says, we will conclude that the messenger of Satan was sent to "buffet" Paul.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7


I honestly don't see how anyone can think that we should just change what the scripture says, to something else...

such as - a messenger of Satan was given to me to dwell in my flesh.


That is the only thing that is not "fully understood" in my opinion.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Hmmm? I wonder WHO that could be?

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Face it JLB. Your story doesn't add up to the facts.

All the enlarged words in red will not change what the scripture actually says.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7


This does not say "a messenger of Satan was given to me to dwell in my flesh".


He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8


This does not say "sin is of the devil", but rather "he" meaning "the person" who sins is of the devil.



Furthermore Mark 4:15 does not say the devil is in all peoples flesh, and steals the word of God from all people.

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” Mark 4:13-20


Satan is unable to steal the Gospel message from all people.

 

[JLB]

Also, lets look at Romans chapter seven....
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Please post the scripture that Satan is able to steal the Gospel message from believers.


If you won't, then I will.


A good example of Satan being able to steal the Gospel message from believers, is through a false teaching, which is from demons, that causes believers to depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

A doctrine is a teaching, that men teach, which is inspired by the Holy Spirit or demons.

If a person gives heed to a doctrine of demons and depart from the faith by which they are saved, then how can they still be saved by grace through faith, if they have abandoned or departed from the very faith by which they are saved?

Paul goes on to say in this chapter -

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16


This is eternal life or eternal death, hanging in the balance Chopper, we can't afford to interchange words and play games with scripture, concerning the eternal lives of God's people.


Here is what your signature line says - I refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's Word.




JLB

 

[ezrider]

What smaller and I see is a very close attachment of sin and the author of sin, Satan. If you see sin, you see Satan. If you see Satan, you see sin. If sin is in us, Satan by attachment is in us. It's not that hard to realize this. Sin and Satan are one.

For some reason smaller keeps denying that this is a study on Satan, but that statement of yours Chopper is really quite stunning for a pastor of 40 years. You said Sin and Satan are one. Does smaller agree with you conclusion?

If Sin and Satan are one, then by extension you are saying that Jesus came so that Satan could be forgiven? If by Jesus's blood our Sin are forgiven, then are you saying Satan is forgiven? This doctrine of devils seems to get more convoluted as is goes, but the Lord said the He would chose your delusions.

Have you forgotten the Lord Jesus Christ and the power of His salvation? Is the workings of sin in your flesh more powerful than the Spirit of Christ that you should look to Satan rather than Grace of Christ.

Be careful of the word that was sown in your heart. Hold onto it, and it will NOT be stolen away.

Hebrews 13:8-9
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.


If the OP was honest about living by every word of God, then he would take Paul's advice and realize the meat he is serving has not profited anyone. Let your HEART be established with GRACE. Return to YOUR FIRST LOVE!

That is unless your first love is Satan. He is said to be the father of lies, and it is written that he should turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. Is your heart drawn toward Satan?

 

[ezrider]

2 Peter 3:13-18
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


You are not looking for the new heavens and the new earth, you are not looking for such things when you are looking for Satan. Jesus Christ is the Lord our Righteousness who dwells in the new heavens. We look to the new heavens and the new earth through the Spirit, for you must be Born Again to SEE the kingdom of heaven. But if your heart is set upon the workings of Satan, then you are not looking for the such things according to his promise.

 

[Chopper]

Please post the scripture that Satan is able to steal the Gospel message from believers.


If you won't, then I will.


A good example of Satan being able to steal the Gospel message from believers, is through a false teaching, which is from demons, that causes believers to depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

A doctrine is a teaching, that men teach, which is inspired by the Holy Spirit or demons.

If a person gives heed to a doctrine of demons and depart from the faith by which they are saved, then how can they still be saved by grace through faith, if they have abandoned or departed from the very faith by which they are saved?

Paul goes on to say in this chapter -

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16


This is eternal life or eternal death, hanging in the balance Chopper, we can't afford to interchange words and play games with scripture, concerning the eternal lives of God's people.


Here is what your signature line says - I refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's Word.




JLB

I think that you need to follow you're own advise....

This is eternal life or eternal death, hanging in the balance Chopper, we can't afford to interchange words and play games with scripture, concerning the eternal lives of God's people.

If you can't see a simple warning of evil forces being able to infiltrate the flesh with evil intent, of a believer, no argument is going to change your mind. Smaller started out with that simple warning and it has since evolved into perhaps questionable Truth. Therefore, whenever a thread ends up a big argument that can't be solved, I pull out.

 

[Chopper]

I feel that I must make one more statement before I abandon this thread that I'm very tired of. The reason that I go along with smaller and his teaching is, I have been involved in "spiritual warfare" for the last 25+ years. In fact, I am presently involved counseling a young woman in another Forum. I have a good idea that you've never witnessed a BELIEVER being tormented by evil forces. She still, occasionally cuts herself. Has frightening dreams plus other abnormal events.

I must say that she and I have come a long way to complete deliverance, just not yet. This is why I appreciate and believe what smaller has posted, AND, until you've been on the front line of battling demon forces over 1 precious soul, you'll never understand this thread.

 

[JLB]

I think that you need to follow you're own advise....

I'm sorry Chopper, but you will have to show what you mean by this statement.

This is not a game.


I have taken the time to post the scripture and the reason why I believe it is being mishandled by smaller and by you, to prove that Satan dwells in our flesh and in our mind, and is the one doing the "sinning", and not the person themselves.

Mark 4:15 does not validate any such nonsense, and I expect so much more from you, and have come to respect you and many things you post.


However, this latest discussion, whereby you are validating, someone who has repeatedly misquoted and misused God's words to attempt to teach us that people themselves are not doing the sinning, but it is Satan who dwells in our flesh, and in our mind.

If you can't see a simple warning of evil forces being able to infiltrate the flesh with evil intent, of a believer, no argument is going to change your mind. Smaller started out with that simple warning and it has since evolved into perhaps questionable Truth. Therefore, whenever a thread ends up a big argument that can't be solved,

If it was a simple warning about Satan deceiving us, or evil forces with an evil intent, then I am in full agreement.

I would actually like to discuss these things in a thread under this topic, because I have encountered many things from Satan, and do believe Satan can indeed oppress Christians, and that it is a covenant believer that has the right to deliverance, not unbelievers.

However, I must hold the ground, when things started getting twisted, and scriptures mishandled and misused, and replaced with words of opinion.


Do you understand this man teaches that, Satan was in Adam's flesh before he sinned, and he uses Mark 4:15 to prove that Satan was in Adam, to steal the word from Adam.

That Adam had no choice or freewill in the matter, when he chose to disobey God.

I pull out.

Of course you are going to say, you pull out, because I have brought you to the only logical conclusion that if you believe Satan can steal the Gospel message from believers then your doctrine that a believer can not possibly lose their salvation is false.


Mark 4:15, by context refers to unbelievers, having the Gospel message stolen from their heart, not believers.

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” Mark 4:13-20



JLB

 

[smaller]

For some reason smaller keeps denying that this is a study on Satan,

Went through this drill with you already ez. Scriptures present Satan. When we study scriptures regarding these matters we are NOT lifting up Satan as YOU FALSELY CLAIM.

Clear enough yet?

 

[JLB]

I have been involved in "spiritual warfare" for the last 25+ years. In fact, I am presently involved counseling a young woman in another Forum. I have a good idea that you've never witnessed a BELIEVER being tormented by evil forces. She still, occasionally cuts herself. Has frightening dreams plus other abnormal events.

We all have gone through and are going through such things, Chopper.


The discussion is not about whether Satan is evil and torments people.


We have authority over him, and by the power of the name of Jesus, and the blood of Jesus and the word of God, and the holy Spirit, we cast the devil out and counsel people to give "no place" to the devil.


The point of contention is that Satan dwells in believer's who are filled with the Spirit, and having learned to live obedient, consecrated lives and to obey our Lord and Savior, as we are led by His Spirit.


Smaller is teaching that Spirit filled Christians can't help but to sin, because Satan dwells in our flesh and in our mind, and does the sinning.


In order to have victory over the devil, we must learn to keep ourselves from sin, and practicing the works of the flesh.

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

When we work with such people, we always counsel them to cut off "ungodly" relationships with immoral people, and turn away from the occult.

Then when they have agreed to do that and obeyed, we sever "ungodly" soul ties with those ungodly relationships, by having them confess it as sin, and repent.



Ask the woman whom your working with about ungodly relationships and the occult practices she is involved in.
Ask her about occult or demonic objects she has in her room or home.
These things must be repented of, and discarded or destroyed for their to be relief from the torments.


Would you tell her that she can be free from devils and torments, and be clean and white as snow, to live in peace and victory, but still have Satan dwelling in her flesh and in her mind?


Is that your version of victory?




JLB

 

[smaller]

I feel that I must make one more statement before I abandon this thread that I'm very tired of. The reason that I go along with smaller and his teaching is, I have been involved in "spiritual warfare" for the last 25+ years. In fact, I am presently involved counseling a young woman in another Forum. I have a good idea that you've never witnessed a BELIEVER being tormented by evil forces. She still, occasionally cuts herself. Has frightening dreams plus other abnormal events.

I must say that she and I have come a long way to complete deliverance, just not yet. This is why I appreciate and believe what smaller has posted, AND, until you've been on the front line of battling demon forces over 1 precious soul, you'll never understand this thread.

Brilliant deductions Chopper.

We wear our Spiritual battle gear for very specific purposes, very specifically needed, because of "our" very REAL spiritual adversity and our likewise very REAL spiritual adversaries.

Every believer who resists this side of the ledgers of scripture is in denial and blindness themselves.

The entire fulcrum of the scriptures is about our time in this present warfare.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The REASON we do not love our lives is because the battle with our spiritual adversary transpires in our own flesh, our own minds.

IF we can't see that much we're essentially NO GOOD to anyone else.

In both JLB's case and ez's case, they perpetually seek to condemn fallen believers and even those who ARE believers. I've seen them both do it. That is actually a working of the spiritual adversary in their own flesh, trying to KILL, DESTROY and to CONDEMN.

Their adverse works are written all over them, resisting.

There are certain marks set for faith.

We do as Jesus did:

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

And, IF we are doing the above, there is only ONE DIRECTION remaining to observe matters of SIN, of spiritual blindness, of spiritual adversity and SIN/EVIL in this present world:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

When we WITNESS to the unsaved. When we COUNSEL those who have or are in the process of LOSING the battles, and we DON'T SEE the other party involved,

We ourselves are BLINDED by that same working and worker.

And that is just a SHAME ON US for missing the obvious.

 

[JLB]

Went through this drill with you already ez. Scriptures present Satan. When we study scriptures regarding these matters we are NOT lifting up Satan as YOU FALSELY CLAIM.

Clear enough yet?

What's clear is that you are twisting God's word to get believers to agree and believe that they must live with Satan in their flesh and in their mind.

That is heresy and false doctrine.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18



JLB

 

[smaller]

Smaller is teaching that Spirit filled Christians can't help but to sin, because Satan dwells in our flesh and in our mind, and does the sinning.

And you need to learn how to LISTEN and not to MISREPRESENT what I'm pointing out. What I speak of and what YOU HEAR/SEE are two entirely DIFFERENT things.

And if it is news to you JLB, the indwelling sin and evil present with NO BELIEVER is obedient, faithful or legal.

And that is the message of fact that drives you WILD with resistance. But you see, it's not really YOU who is reacting adversely and claiming indwelling sin and evil present DO NOT DO what they "really" do. It's exactly those workings that are 'NO MORE I' that are "doing the denial dances."

It's a Spiritual Principle you have not yet learned. But you may want to sit up and pay attentions rather than be run by resistance to the facts.

 

[smaller]

What's clear is that you are twisting God's word to get believers to agree and believe that they must live with Satan in their flesh and in their mind.

You can make all the claims you please about how "your" indwelling sin/evil present doesn't do what they do or how these workings are NOT OF THE DEVIL.

I won't be buying any such stories anytime soon.

I believe Paul has set the marks of TRUTH on these matters, and your positions are missing them completely. You don't even realize WHY you resist.

That is heresy and false doctrine.

What is false doctrine is teaching the sinlessness of the FLESH. That's pretty much where your head is at. In a complete DELUSION to the obvious.