Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[JLB]

I asked this:
"How many other people did God turn to a pillar of salt in the Bible?
Is being turned into a pillar of salt equivalent to going to hell, or just physically dying?"

Yes and here is my answer -

Misquoting someone and adding words to their post is not any way to be seen as credible.


Here is what I said.

The point you seem to be making is -

The Lord is truly merciful, however if we disregard His instructions or commands, we may find ourselves as Lot's wife, while other's who take heed to God's command did experience His intended grace and blessing.


If you disagree, then please state what exactly you disagree with and why.

Please don't make up something I didn't say by adding your own words, then disagreeing with the fictitious point that I never made.


I was trying to see if I understood the point Reba was making, and apologized in advance if I didn't.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Please DON'T charge me with making anything up or adding words, or even disagreeing when ALL I DID WAS TO ASK 2 questions.

I have a strong suspicion that my post was never even read before you responded.

I have a strong suspicion my post was not read, as it is plain as day just exactly what I meant, when I addressed Reba's post.

Here is what I said.

The point you seem to be making is -

The Lord is truly merciful, however if we disregard His instructions or commands, we may find ourselves as Lot's wife, while other's who take heed to God's command did experience His intended grace and blessing.


If you disagree, then please state what exactly you disagree with and why.


You either agree or disagree.


If you disagree, then please state why.



JLB

 

[JLB]

1. Eternal life is a gift of God - Rom 6:23

Disagree.

Romans 6:23 does not say this.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

You left out the other half, about those who sin, in which they will receive those wages, which is death.

2. Eternal life is received on the basis of believing in Jesus Christ - John 5:24, 6:40

Where in this verse do you see the words "believing in Jesus Christ"?

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

• You misquote the scripture.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

The condition given by Jesus here, who may have eternal life is "seeing the Son, and believing in Him".

• You misquote the scripture.

3. God's gifts are irrevocable - Rom 11:29

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

This verse says the gifts and calling are irrevocable.

Not just the gifts, but the gifts and calling, are irrevocable.

• You misquote the scripture.

4. Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH - John 10:28

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Jesus qualifies those He gives eternal life to: hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


John 10:28 says - ...and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

This is could refer to anyone in the world, without qualifying who He is referring to.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Can you address these 4 FACTS of Scripture that I've just listed and prove how they are NOT facts of Scripture, or that these FACTS don't teach eternal life?

Already did.
You didn't get it.

 

[JLB]

I'll totally prove your claim WRONG by taking what you've quoted and bolding the part that totally agrees with what I said.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The only thing you have proven is you are willing to chop up God's word, and mix and match it however you want, then tag it with a scripture reference as if you mix and match, cut and paste misquote version of scripture is what the scriptures actually say.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Can the gift of God be eternal life in Buddha?

Can the gift of God be eternal life in Allah?


The scripture Romans 6:23 says this -

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


As long as you are "in" Christ Jesus our Lord, then you have eternal life.

If you are "in" Christ Jesus our Lord, then you are removed from being "in" Christ Jesus, you no longer have the eternal life you once had, when you were "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2



JLB

 

[atpollard]

As long as you are "in" Christ Jesus our Lord, then you have eternal life.
If you are "in" Christ Jesus our Lord, then you are removed from being "in" Christ Jesus, you no longer have the eternal life you once had, when you were "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then it really is not a 'gift', is it.

Romans 11:5-6 [NKJV]
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Can you address these 4 FACTS of Scripture that I've just listed and prove how they are NOT facts of Scripture, or that these FACTS don't teach eternal life?"

Already did.
You didn't get it.

Actually, no one did. Because you didn't answer that request, which was post #259, btw.

Between that post, and your response here, #264, I had 1 post and another poster had 3 posts.

Your response here is the FIRST response to my post #259, so your claim that you 'already did' is false.

If you're unable or unwilling, please just admit it. But don't make false statements about it.

 

[JLB]

Then it really is not a 'gift', is it.

Romans 11:5-6 [NKJV]
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

It is a gift, in which it can not be "earned" by working for it.

Like any gift, it can be misunderstood, neglected and even discarded or abandoned.

But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:23


The condition that is put on receiving the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus, is believing, which in the biblical meaning, has a fuller meaning than what the post modern definition may imply.


Hear - Strong's G191 - akouō

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2. to hear
   
   1. to attend to, consider what is or has been said
   2. to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
      
3. to hear something
   
   
   1. to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
   2. to get by hearing learn
   3. a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
   4. to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
   5. to comprehend, to understand
      

Understand - Strong's G4920 - syniēmi

1. to set or bring together
   1. in a hostile sense, of combatants
2. to put (as it were) the perception with the thing perceived
   
   
   1. to set or join together in the mind
      
      
      1. i.e. to understand: the man of understanding
      2. idiom for: a good and upright man (having the knowledge of those things which pertain to salvation)
         

In all 4 cases described by the Lord, all 4 did in fact "hear", but the only one that did in fact reproduce the seed, was those who hear and understand.

• If you notice the first group, they "heard" but did not understand.

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:19


Those who understand this, are those who understand God's purpose for Mankind.


Hear are the first words spoken to Mankind, which include you and I, because we were contained in Adam's loins.


Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion...
Genesis 1:28

Did you know that God want's the image and likeness to be reproduced in the earth; to fill the earth?
Did you know that God wants godly offspring; sons according to the image of His only begotten Son?

Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God, in which their purpose was to reproduce that image and likeness.

The Seed that is to be reproduced is Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.

Those who hear and understand this, will be fruitful.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The only thing you have proven is you are willing to chop up God's word, and mix and match it however you want, then tag it with a scripture reference as if you mix and match, cut and paste misquote version of scripture is what the scriptures actually say.

The only thing I've found that is a "mix and match", "cut and paste" kind of theology is what I read in your posts.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Exactly! How does one get to be "in Christ"? Paul answers that in Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.

I've highlighted some of the words to help people understand what Paul was teaching.
1. WHEN people have "heard the word of truth" (gospel), and "having believed"
2. they (believers) are marked in Him with a seal, which is the Holy Spirit Himself
3. The Holy Spirit is a deposit which GUARANTEES our inheritance.

Please explain how the Holy Spirit really isn't any guarantee of our inheritance as God's children.

Can the gift of God be eternal life in Buddha?
Can the gift of God be eternal life in Allah?

These questions are totally irrelevant to the discussion.

The scripture Romans 6:23 says this -

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As long as you are "in" Christ Jesus our Lord, then you have eternal life.

Gonna have to do better than just throw out claims. Please exegete the verse to prove your claim.

in fact Eph 2:13,14 refutes your claim that a believer can no longer be "in Christ". The believer is placed "in Him" by the Holy Spirit, who is a guarantee of our inheritance.

Are you aware of what a "guarantee" is and means? It seems not.

If you are "in" Christ Jesus our Lord, then you are removed from being "in" Christ Jesus, you no longer have the eternal life you once had, when you were "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are no verses that state that a believer can be taken out of Christ.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Not even this metaphor says what is being claimed.

Bearing fruit is a SERVICE that the branch offers the farmer. When a branch no longer bears fruit, it is removed from service.

That is all that Jesus meant. No one has shown from exegesis that Jesus was speaking of loss of salvation.

And if He did, then fast forward to 10:28 and what He said cannot be true; that by simply receiving eternal life, one will never perish.

That's what your side cannot explain. The sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to be given eternal life by Jesus.

And He gives eternal life to everyone who believes in Him.

10:28 is a far more clearly stated verse about eternal security than 15:1-2 is about conditional security.

And we all know that both can't be true. They are polar opposites.

 

[JLB]

Exactly! How does one get to be "in Christ"? Paul answers that in Eph 1:13-14

Believe.

The condition is Believe.

What Jesus meant by "believe" and what you mean by believe, may in fact be two entirely different things, which I suspect is the case.

• Never the less, the condition that is required for a person to receive salvation is: Believe.

...lest they should believe and be saved.

• If this condition for salvation is not met, then salvation will not be attained.

...if you hold fast that word which I preached to you.
...having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.



11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

and again

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2



JLB

 

[chessman]

If you notice the first group, they "heard" but did not understand.

If you notice even more, only the last group understood the word:

Matthew 13:23 But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.” ​

 

[JLB]

Bearing fruit is a SERVICE that the branch offers the farmer.

Let's see what Jesus says.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit...If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-2,6


What type of service does the branch offer while burning in the fire?


Maybe keeping the farmer warm?



JLB

 

[smaller]

Please explain how the Holy Spirit really isn't any guarantee of our inheritance as God's children.

In order to get where "their head" is at we MUST believe the Holy Spirit is an ineffective, missing in action, utter failure.

Fortunately for "reader/believers" we do have an exact opposite claim, "as it is written:"

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. -

Man's failures were a foregone conclusion.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Exactly! How does one get to be "in Christ"? Paul answers that in Eph 1:13-14"

Believe.

The condition is Believe.

Exactly. It is at THAT POINT WHEN one believes that they receive the gift of eternal life (John 5:24) and we know that God's gifts are irrevoable. Which agrees completely with the words of Jesus in John 3:16 and 10:28 about how to NEVER PERISH.

What Jesus meant by "believe" and what you mean by believe, may in fact be two entirely different things, which I suspect is the case.

I believe what the Greek word means, not what anyone thinks it means.

I've give a clear exampe from Scripture about what it means to 'believe':
John 4:46-50
46 Once more he visited Cana in Galilee, where he had turned the water into wine. And there was a certain royal official whose son lay sick at Capernaum. 47 When this man heard that Jesus had arrived in Galilee from Judea, he went to him and begged him to come and heal his son, who was close to death. 48 "Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe." 49 The royal official said, "Sir, come down before my child dies." 50 Jesus replied, "You may go. Your son will live." The man took Jesus at his word and departed

Did the man believe what Jesus said or not?

The Greek word is the word for "believe", NT:4100 pisteuo

Never the less, the condition that is required for a person to receive salvation is: Believe.
...lest they should believe and be saved.

If this condition for salvation is not met, then salvation will not be attained.
...if you hold fast that word which I preached to you.

Are you aware that Jesus used the aorist tense for "believe" in Luke 8:12? Refuting the myth that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. One is saved in a point in time (aorist tense). Even Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul's answer was clear: believe in a point in time (aorist) and you will be saved.

...having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

This is quite obviously about bearing fruit, not about how to get saved.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

and again

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
JLB

Mix and match, cut and paste.

To hold fast means to possess, which would be eternal life. And once a person believes, in a point in time (aorist), they possess eternal life.

And the SOLE CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to be given eternal life from Jesus (John 10:28).

Eternal security is very clearly stated in Scripture.

 

[JLB]

If you notice even more, only the last group understood the word:

Matthew 13:23 But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.”

Yes, that would be my point.

Those who believe for a while were saved for a while.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


These believed for a while, but did not "hold fast" or "keep" the word to the bearing of fruit.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2



JLB

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

It seems pretty straight forward to me. Man has a hard time believing that God is sovereign over His creation. That's really what this is about. We want to believe we are bigger than God. We aren't and no matter what we do God's plan will be accomplished. All we do with our rebellion is play right into his plan. What God wants He will get and that includes our salvation.

 

[JLB]

Exactly. It is at THAT POINT WHEN one believes that they receive the gift of eternal life (John 5:24) and we know that God's gifts are irrevoable. Which agrees completely with the words of Jesus in John 3:16 and 10:28 about how to NEVER PERISH.

Jesus teaches that there will be those who believe for a while, and no longer met the condition by which we are saved.

Those who believe for a while were saved for a while.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


These believed for a while, but did not "hold fast" or "keep" the word to the bearing of fruit.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Let's see what Jesus says.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit...If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-2,6


What type of service does the branch offer while burning in the fire?

That's the point. The branch was removed from service.

What the verse may be teaching is that those believers who don't bear fruit, God removes or takes away from the earth. Ever thought about that?

There's really no reason at all to default to hell in these kinds of verses.

Esp since Jesus was clear about the sole condition for NEVER PERISHING; to be given eternal life by Jesus (John 10:28).

 

[JLB]

It seems pretty straight forward to me. Man has a hard time believing that God is sovereign over His creation. That's really what this is about. We want to believe we are bigger than God. We aren't and no matter what we do God's plan will be accomplished. All we do with our rebellion is play right into his plan. What God wants He will get and that includes our salvation.

Thank you for sharing your opinion with us.



JLB

 

[Edward]

This is quite a discourse you guys have going on here. I've been following it, and I keep seeing if if if if if, all over the place. The Bible is replete with warnings to us. If you want a type and shadow of this go back to the OT and see how God dealt with the Israelites. If my people will....then I will...

That seems to be how it is now too considering that God doesn't change. These warnings (not hollow warnings!) are there because God will not let Himself be mocked, or in other words, You can't go to church on Sunday and receive the Lord, then go back home and sit on your duff and not walk in the Word. When we're not walking in the Word, we are not "in Christ" or producing fruit. Walking in (Christ) does not mean sitting at home waiting for the one day, Jesus will show up and change me in the twinkling making me perfect and sinless forever, and I don even have to do anything in the meantime, and continue on with ones lifestyle...these are the people who will say to Him in that day, Lord Lord...and He will say I never knew you. There's no loophole which will allow one to be lukewarm Christian. God will spew them out of His mouth. If you don't really believe it then you wont walk in it and wont produce fruit.

Do you want to show up alone on that day? I don't I want to have friends and Brothers & Sisters with me....Lord, look who I brought with me!

Walking in...implies action on our part. Belief implies walking in. If it was a stated prayer and nothing comes after it, then what does, work out your salvation with fear and trembling mean? Do we not remember the parable of the Talents? Ok, the Lord has granted us salvation, and sealed us (given us a Talent)...Now He's gone preparing a place for you...What are you going to do with your Talent? You better not bury it because we know what happened to that guy...!

We better pick up that cross, and pick a direction and start walking, Lest the Lord takes His Talent back and gives it to another. Capish?