John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Nathan]

Yes, it's the same word and same meaning Paul used in making His point in 1 Tim 4.

In later times some will depart from the faith by making claims that some things God has made holy will be rejected. In otherwords, teaching that holy creations can be overcome by lifestyle.

Odd thought, really since our lifestyle wasn't so great when we were saved in the first place. We were literally helpless, enemies of God, yet He saved us:

Romans 5:6, 9-11 (LEB) For while we were still helpless, yet at the proper time Christ died for the ungodly. ...​

Therefore, by much more, because we have been declared righteous now by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath. ​

[It could not be stated any clearly. Since God has declared us righteous/holy by His blood, we WILL be saved. He even tells us why He can be so sure of this fact. It's done through Him, not us. And if you don't believe it's true, just look at how He recociled us to God WHILE we were enemies.]

For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, by much more, having been reconciled, we will be saved by his life. And not only this, but also we are boasting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.​

Correct, we WILL be saved so long as we stay in Christ. You will not find any passages that state you cannot leave Christ though. Quite the opposite, there are many that warn against it.

Jude 5-7
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 17-23
But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. And have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

Hebrews 12:12-17
Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

That last passage in Hebrews used to scare me to death. But, as God's love grew in me, I came to realize it for what it is - a warning.

We would all do good - those on both sides of the OSAS debate - to head this. Sin is anything that "misses the mark". Bitterness is a dangerous emotion.

 

[JLB]

Yes, it's the same word and same meaning Paul used in making His point in 1 Tim 4.

In later times some will depart from the faith by making claims that some things God has made holy will be rejected. In otherwords, teaching that holy creations can be overcome by lifestyle.

Odd thought, really since our lifestyle wasn't so great when we were saved in the first place. We were literally helpless, enemies of God, yet He saved us:

Romans 5:6, 9-11 (LEB) For while we were still helpless, yet at the proper time Christ died for the ungodly. ...​

Therefore, by much more, because we have been declared righteous now by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath. ​

[It could not be stated any clearer. Since God has declared us righteous/holy by His blood, we WILL be saved. He even tells us why He can be so sure of this fact. It's done through Him, not us. And if you don't believe it's true, just look at how He reconciled us to God WHILE we were enemies.]

For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, by much more, having been reconciled, we will be saved by his life. And not only this, but also we are boasting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.​

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


The faith in this verse is a reference to the faith in Christ Jesus for salvation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Correct, we WILL be saved so long as we stay in Christ.

Amen !

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

There is one problem that I have with," You can lose your salvation" doctrine, it is Who has the power of resurrection? We know that God does, but the question is does a dead person have the ability to resurrect their old "dead man" and take themselves out of Christ?

 

[Nathan]

dirtfarmer here

There is one problem that I have with," You can lose your salvation" doctrine, it is Who has the power of resurrection? We know that God does, but the question is does a dead person have the ability to resurrect their old "dead man" and take themselves out of Christ?

I have to say I would have a problem with a "loose your salvation" doctrine too. In fact, I have a problem with "loose your ______" fill in the blank doctrine of any kind. To loose something tends to refer to not knowing where it went. Maybe semantics, but it adds to the confusion to deem it that way. If you refer to it as no longer having such, because of intentional acts, then I can see using the word "loose".

 

[Nathan]

Paul says we "died to sin". Is this the dead you are talking of?

Romans 6:1-11
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For uif we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

I find no scripture that states that the "old man" can be resurrected after it has been crucified with Christ. There are those that teach that they themselves have to power to break the seal of the Holy Spirit by which they have been sealed unto the day of redemption. The believing until the end and then you will be saved is no where taught to the Church, the body of Christ. Scripture teaches that now, at this present time, those that are part of the body of Christ, are citizens of heaven, therefore we are strangers upon this earth: Philippians 3:20-21

The righteousness that brings salvation comes from God. Philippians 3:9-10 states that our own righteousness is of the law and we should know that there was, is, and shall be no salvation by keeping the law. The law reveals to us how exceedingly sinful sin is, and therefore a need for a savior. Jesus fulfilled the law, fulfilling the righteous requirement of God, therefore those that are in Christ have fulfilled the law by the faith of Christ.

God made a decree that " the soul that sinneth it shall die". Meaning to be everlastingly separated from God. God also stated that "the life is in the blood". That is the reason that the resurrected body of Jesus was flesh and bone, not flesh and blood. The life of His resurrected was Spirit, as we are told that the "last Adam" was a life giving Spirit.

The blood of the earthly Jesus is the life that was offered as the sin offering to pay the sin debt of the whole world. We are told in Hebrews 9:26 that Christ has appeared once with his blood to "put away sin."

So yes, we are no longer enslaved to sin, if we have been crucified with him.

 

[Atonement]

There are many loop holes in this ..

The best practice is to live with a Repentive heart..

We should be teaching others how to obtain a heart that is pleasing to God. If we can learn to teach others and ourselves how to come to God each day and repent for the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Then we can all be sure about our salvation. To me, this is much better than a debate on what theology is right/wrong. It's great to discuss the topics (don't get me wrong). But there needs to be a balance between theology and our personal walk with Christ..

 

[JLB]

I find no scripture that states that the "old man" can be resurrected after it has been crucified with Christ.

Our "old body" will be raised from the dead, but it will be changed.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54


JLB

 

[JLB]

The best practice is to live with a Repentive heart..

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

I find no scripture that states that the "old man" can be resurrected after it has been crucified with Christ. There are those that teach that they themselves have to power to break the seal of the Holy Spirit by which they have been sealed unto the day of redemption. The believing until the end and then you will be saved is no where taught to the Church, the body of Christ. Scripture teaches that now, at this present time, those that are part of the body of Christ, are citizens of heaven, therefore we are strangers upon this earth: Philippians 3:20-21

The righteousness that brings salvation comes from God. Philippians 3:9-10 states that our own righteousness is of the law and we should know that there was, is, and shall be no salvation by keeping the law. The law reveals to us how exceedingly sinful sin is, and therefore a need for a savior. Jesus fulfilled the law, fulfilling the righteous requirement of God, therefore those that are in Christ have fulfilled the law by the faith of Christ.

God made a decree that " the soul that sinneth it shall die". Meaning to be everlastingly separated from God. God also stated that "the life is in the blood". That is the reason that the resurrected body of Jesus was flesh and bone, not flesh and blood. The life of His resurrected was Spirit, as we are told that the "last Adam" was a life giving Spirit.

The blood of the earthly Jesus is the life that was offered as the sin offering to pay the sin debt of the whole world. We are told in Hebrews 9:26 that Christ has appeared once with his blood to "put away sin."

So yes, we are no longer enslaved to sin, if we have been crucified with him.

I'm a bit confused with your thoughts, so bear with me please.

The "old man" of ourselves refers to our old way of life and thinking. As in, we were once alienated, having no knowledge of the truth.

It indeed would be impossible to revert back to that state. That is why this warning is given;

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

 

[Nathan]

Another passage to better understand what the "old man" is.

Ephesian 4:17-24
Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

 

[reba]

There are many loop holes in this ..

The best practice is to live with a Repentive heart..

We should be teaching others how to obtain a heart that is pleasing to God. If we can learn to teach others and ourselves how to come to God each day and repent for the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Then we can all be sure about our salvation. To me, this is much better than a debate on what theology is right/wrong. It's great to discuss the topics (don't get me wrong). But there needs to be a balance between theology and our personal walk with Christ..

LIKE

 

[civilwarbuff]

That's the #1 problem with OSAS. The "once" part of that doctrine means there cannot be more. The doctrine looks at Faith as a past event. I have heard it refuted this way though, that if you were saved then you will always be saved. Most OSAS people will look at people who most assuredly have left all semblance of the Faith, and just say "they were not really saved to begin with". How pompous is that? Besides that, who would want to live like that - wondering, was I really saved?

I will go with what the Master, not the student, says:
John 3
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Are you a Teacher of Israel, and know not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto you, We speak what we do know, and testify what we have seen; and you receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Nathan]

I will go with what the Master, not the student, says:
John 3
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Are you a Teacher of Israel, and know not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto you, We speak what we do know, and testify what we have seen; and you receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Question - the person who does not believe, who Jesus says is "condemned", does that mean they are eternally condemned because they have not believed in His name?

 

[Nathan]

I

There are many loop holes in this ..

The best practice is to live with a Repentive heart..

We should be teaching others how to obtain a heart that is pleasing to God. If we can learn to teach others and ourselves how to come to God each day and repent for the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Then we can all be sure about our salvation. To me, this is much better than a debate on what theology is right/wrong. It's great to discuss the topics (don't get me wrong). But there needs to be a balance between theology and our personal walk with Christ..

That thread is going over in the Bible Study forum

 

[civilwarbuff]

Question - the person who does not believe, who Jesus says is "condemned", does that mean they are eternally condemned because they have not believed in His name?

I don't see the word eternally in that scripture, so would you like to re-phrase it instead of attempting to make it say something it does not?

 

[Nathan]

I don't see the word eternally in that scripture, so would you like to re-phrase it instead of attempting to make it say something it does not?

No, it was just a question.

Another question. Do those of you who believe in OSAS feel as though what I am saying make you doubt your salvation?

 

[Atonement]

No, it was just a question.

Another question. Do those of you who believe in OSAS feel as though what I am saying make you doubt your salvation?

Not at all Nathan.. The opposite in fact, the Scriptures presented along with the parables has helped me with the fact that OSAS is still the only way I choose to believe. There are many loop holes in either theology and it can be debated until we are blue in the face. The end results are the same. I'm a strong Christian man and I live to try and glorify the Father each day. I hold steadfast to my theology as I assume we all do. But it's a great topic for discussion.. No more than that, at least for me personally

 

[civilwarbuff]

No, it was just a question.

Another question. Do those of you who believe in OSAS feel as though what I am saying make you doubt your salvation?

Not at all though some of the vitriol expressed by people who disagree with it tend to strengthen it.....but people fear what they don't understand.