John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Jim Parker]

First, let me state what I mean by "salvation."
By "salvation" I mean "having eternal life."

Jhn 15:1-6
1. I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The passage is an extended metaphor in which the Father is represented by the vinedresser; Jesus is represented by the vine; and His disciples are represented by the branches. It is an agricultural metaphor with which the disciples, as well as the general public, would be familiar.

V.1
The Vine (Jesus) is the source of life for the branches. (Jhn 1:4)
The branches (disciples) get their nourishment from the vine and have life by being "in Christ", being connected to the vine. (Gal 2:20; Rom 6:23)
The purpose of the branches is to bear fruit. (otherwise, why plant a vineyard?)

V.2
The Father removes (NIV: "Cuts off") from Christ every disciple who does not bear fruit. ( 2 PE 1:5-10)
And He "prunes" those disciples who do produce fruit so that they will be more fruitful.
Pruning is a procedure by which a vinedresser removes excess foliage which is not necessary for the health of the vine but which uses nourishment which could better be used for producing fruit. These would be like the "thorns" in the parable of the sower (Luke 8) which choked the plant and prevented it from being fruitful.
In order to have eternal life (be saved) one must be united to Christ or, "in Christ." (1Jo 5:12)
Someone who is "in Christ" (in the vine) has eternal life.
Someone who has been cut off from the vine no longer has eternal life.

V.4 This contains the instruction of Jesus to His disciples to remain (abide) in Him. The fact that He gives this instruction of necessity includes the possibility that they might not remain in Him. Otherwise, if it were impossible for them not to abide in Christ, there would be no reason to tell them to do so.

V.6 This verse tells us the consequence of not remaining in Christ. He is cast out, gathered up, and thrown into the fire.
This is a warning that those who do not remain in Christ will be cast into hell.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Pegasus]

The Father removes (NIV: "Cuts off") from Christ every disciple who does not bear fruit. ( 2 PE 1:5-10)

Don't know how 2 Peter 1:5-10 applies to the statement above.

2 Peter 1: New King James Version (NKJV)

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Now what does it mean to abide in Him? What does it mean be united to Christ or, "in Christ." Meaning, how is such accomplished?

My answer? Trust and Obey. Who gives us the power to trust and obey? The answer is in the two verses you omitted in your exegesis. Here they are:

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. (John 15:3)

and

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)

It all comes down to trust and faith in Jesus Christ. Faith implies faithfulness. It's an action. However, this action is 'fruitless' unless it comes from God.

 

[Jim Parker]

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Quite simple:
Make your election sure.
If you do these things you will never stumble.
And an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
If you do not do those things then you will be cut off.

Now what does it mean to abide in Him? What does it mean be united to Christ or, "in Christ." Meaning, how is such accomplished?

To be in Christ:
1. Repent: Change what you believe and how you act.
(Rom 12:2) And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
2. Believe that Christ means for you to act according to His teachings. (Col 3:5-10)
3. Make it your purpose in life to be like Christ. (Eph 4:11-13)
4. Be baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit. (Act 2:38, Ro 6:2-6)
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 5:30-32 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Faith implies faithfulness. It's an action.

Exactly

However, this action is 'fruitless' unless it comes from God.

It is initiated by the leading of the Holy Spirit but each individual is responsible to respond to that leading and exert effort to do as the Spirit leads. We co-operate with God, He doesn't operate us like puppets on strings.
Otherwise, we would not be responsible for our behavior and God would be unjust for punishing those whom He did not CAUSE to do good works. But we are responsible for our actions and will be judged according to the fruit we bear.
(Mat 25:45b) “… inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me."
(Mat 25:46a) “And these will go away into everlasting punishment"ALSO
(Mat 25:40b) “…inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it unto me.”
you did it unto me.”
(Mat 25:46b) “..., but the righteous into eternal life.”

(John 5:28-29) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Also, Jesus said:
Jhn 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
Jhn 6:53-54 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So participate in the Eucharist as often as you can. It's what the primitive church did every Lord's Day. (Sunday)


iakov the fool

 

[Pegasus]

It is initiated by the leading of the Holy Spirit but each individual is responsible to respond to that leading and exert effort to do as the Spirit leads. We co-operate with God, He doesn't operate us like puppets on strings.
Otherwise, we would not be responsible for our behavior and God would be unjust for punishing those whom He did not CAUSE to do good works. But we are responsible for our actions and will be judged according to the fruit we bear.

I was following quite well until the above. There's a big difference between a puppet master and Grace.

The cooperation part smacks of semi Pelagian as was condemned at the Council of Orange :

Excerpt :

The Canons of the Council of Orange
(529 AD)

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).

CANON 9. Concerning the succor of God. It is a mark of divine favor when we are of a right purpose and keep our feet from hypocrisy and unrighteousness; for as often as we do good, God is at work in us and with us, in order that we may do so.
[...]

CANON 16. No man shall be honored by his seeming attainment, as though it were not a gift, or suppose that he has received it because a missive from without stated it in writing or in speech. For the Apostle speaks thus, "For if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2:21); and "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men" (Eph. 4:8, quoting Ps. 68:18). It is from this source that any man has what he does; but whoever denies that he has it from this source either does not truly have it, or else "even what he has will be taken away" (Matt. 25:29).

CANON 17. Concerning Christian courage. The courage of the Gentiles is produced by simple greed, but the courage of Christians by the love of God which "has been poured into our hearts" not by freedom of will from our own side but "through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us" (Rom. 5:5).

CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

CANON 21. Concerning nature and grace. As the Apostle most truly says to those who would be justified by the law and have fallen from grace, "If justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2:21), so it is most truly declared to those who imagine that grace, which faith in Christ advocates and lays hold of, is nature: "If justification were through nature, then Christ died to no purpose." Now there was indeed the law, but it did not justify, and there was indeed nature, but it did not justify. Not in vain did Christ therefore die, so that the law might be fulfilled by him who said, "I have come not to abolish them, but to fulfil them" (Matt. 5:17), and that the nature which had been destroyed by Adam might be restored by him who said that he had come "to seek and to save the lost" (Luke 19:10).

http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html

 

[chessman]

Pruning is a procedure by which a vinedresser removes excess foliage which is not necessary for the health of the vine but which uses nourishment which could better be used for producing fruit.

No it's not.

http://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/tutorials/2014/01/8/how-to-prune-a-grape-vine

Whether you are growing your grape vines in a row or over a trellis, your grape vines must be pruned each year. Learning how to prune your grape vine is the first step in reaping a bountiful supply of grapes. Grape vines need a heavy pruning that often scares gardeners as they have to remove 90% of the branches!​

Is it really necessary to prune the grape vines?
If you would like to collect more than one cluster of grapes, yes! Here is why: the vine will only produce fruit on the new branches of the year. If you let the vine make five meters of branches every year, after 3 years your vine will have to feed 15 meters of branches to reach the branch's extremity where the fruit are! The vine will have little energy left when it comes to the end of the branch, hence the fruit yield will be low. Pruning your vine is essential, as it limits the amount of branches not producing fruit.​

 

[WIP]

First, let me state what I mean by "salvation."
By "salvation" I mean "having eternal life."

Just for my own clarity, does having eternal life in hell also mean saved?

 

[Jim Parker]

There's a big difference between a puppet master and Grace.

There's also a big difference between "CANON 5. ... the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, ..." and the Holy Spirit taking over our will.

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit,

I did not suggest that.

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble,

I did not suggest that.

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will,

I did not suggest that.

We still have free will but we now have a desire to please God even while the "flesh makes war" against that will to please God. That desire to please God is given to us by grace through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, we make the effort to subdue the desires of the flesh and submit to the will of the Holy Spirit Who dwells in us by grace. We are told to: "...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. "(Rom 13:14) and to "...walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh." (Gal 5:16) and "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." (Gal 5:25)

The NT is replete with teaching of what a believer is supposed to do. If our will was not required in order to do those things, then it would be unnecessary for the Holy Spirit to have given us those instructions and we could greatly reduce the size of the NT by removing all the "unnecessary" instruction about hat we should do and how we should behave as believers.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

If doing God's will were automatic or if the Holy Spirit just made us do it without our co-operation then there would be no need for any "new commandment."
That's what I mean by "co-operation."
It has absolutely nothing to do with Pelagius' teaching.
It is what the NT writers teach.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Just for my own clarity, does having eternal life in hell also mean saved?

People in hell do not have "Eternal Life".
They will have immortality and incorruptibility (1 Cor 15:53) along with the rest of the human race. That is different from "eternal life."
Eternal life is only experienced by those who are "in Christ", members of His body. (Eph 5:30)
Those in hell experience the "second death" (apparently) for all eternity. (Rev 20:14; 21:8)

 

[civilwarbuff]

What is the difference between Eternal Life and immortality besides the presence of God?

 

[Pegasus]

There's also a big difference between "CANON 5. ... the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, ..." and the Holy Spirit taking over our will.



I did not suggest that.

I did not suggest that.

I did not suggest that.

We still have free will but we now have a desire to please God even while the "flesh makes war" against that will to please God. That desire to please God is given to us by grace through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, we make the effort to subdue the desires of the flesh and submit to the will of the Holy Spirit Who dwells in us by grace. We are told to: "...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. "(Rom 13:14) and to "...walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh." (Gal 5:16) and "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." (Gal 5:25)

The NT is replete with teaching of what a believer is supposed to do. If our will was not required in order to do those things, then it would be unnecessary for the Holy Spirit to have given us those instructions and we could greatly reduce the size of the NT by removing all the "unnecessary" instruction about hat we should do and how we should behave as believers.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

If doing God's will were automatic or if the Holy Spirit just made us do it without our co-operation then there would be no need for any "new commandment."
That's what I mean by "co-operation."
It has absolutely nothing to do with Pelagius' teaching.
It is what the NT writers teach.

iakov the fool

It is initiated by the leading of the Holy Spirit but each individual is responsible to respond to that leading and exert effort to do as the Spirit leads. We co-operate with God, He doesn't operate us like puppets on strings.
Otherwise, we would not be responsible for our behavior

It's the term cooperate I referred to. And as your title suggests the loss of salvation. Which as you pose it is rejected by Canon 19 of Orange:

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

The above bolded clearly depicts the safeguarding of our salvation is by Grace. Which confirms the earlier canons quoting the Apostle Paul:

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Philippians 1:6)

I'm starting to think a bunch of Calvinists hijacked the Council of Orange. Of course I am being facetious but in an instructive way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is the difference between Eternal Life and immortality besides the presence of God?

Eternal life is not just a never ending life.
It is a quality of life.
The Greek word zoe is used to describe this quality of spiritual life. While the word psuche is used for the life of the soul itself. And the word bios for biological life.

The life God gives is zoe life. People in hell will have psuche life, but not zoe life. IOW, they will exist and be alive in hell, but not have God's abundant quality of life.

 

[Jim Parker]

What is the difference between Eternal Life and immortality besides the presence of God?

It's not the "presence" of God that makes the difference.
God is everywhere present. (Psa 139:7-12)
The difference is being united to God, in whom is life, (John 1:4) and, therefore having eternal life, or not being united to God and not having life. In both situations a person will have immortality but only by being "in Christ" will one have eternal life. If one is not "in Christ" his experience is the second death.

 

[Jim Parker]

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

The above bolded clearly depicts the safeguarding of our salvation is by Grace.

Better read that again.
It says nothing of the sort.
It says: Man cannot safeguard his salvation without the grace of God. That has nothing to do with losing salvation. "Safeguarding" and "losing" are two very different things.
It implies: Man cannot restore what was lost without the grace of God. That very clearly indicates that the salvation can be lost.

Man cannot be saved but by the grace of God. (Eph 2:8-9)
Man was created to do good works. (Eph 2:10)
We are told in scripture to do those things which are righteous. That required an act of will on our part.
Rom 12:1-2… present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, [which is] your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what [is] that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Doing God's will is not automatic.
It requires our co-operation; we must choose to "present our bodies as living sacrifices" to do God's will instead of our will.
God does not turn us into puppets or wind-up toys that can only do what He has re-programmed us to do.

 

[Pegasus]

Better read that again.
It says nothing of the sort.

I did and here it is again:

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

 

[Jim Parker]

I did and here it is again:

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

OK you did read it again and still didn't see that it is not about losing salvation or the impossibility of losing salvation. (the topic of this thread)
My entire comment with regard to Canon 19 was:
"Better read that again.
It says nothing of the sort.
It says: Man cannot safeguard his salvation without the grace of God. That has nothing to do with losing salvation. "Safeguarding" and "losing" are two very different things.
It implies: Man cannot restore what was lost without the grace of God. That very clearly indicates that the salvation can be lost."

 

[Pegasus]

OK you did read it again and still didn't see that it is not about losing salvation or the impossibility of losing salvation. (the topic of this thread)
My entire comment with regard to Canon 19 was:
"Better read that again.
It says nothing of the sort.
It says: Man cannot safeguard his salvation without the grace of God. That has nothing to do with losing salvation. "Safeguarding" and "losing" are two very different things.
It implies: Man cannot restore what was lost without the grace of God. That very clearly indicates that the salvation can be lost."

Lost as in losing one's car keys? Or "lost" as in purposely dousing the car with gasoline, lighting a match and cheering as the car is burned laughing as walking away?

I think a C.S. Lewis quote is appropriate:

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”

― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

 

[Jim Parker]

Lost as in losing one's car keys? Or "lost" as in purposely dousing the car with gasoline, lighting a match and cheering as the car is burned laughing as walking away?

Neither extreme.
It's more like:
Mat 13:20-21 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

and

Mat 13:22 ... what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

Great book

iakov the fool

 

[WIP]

Eternal life is not just a never ending life.
It is a quality of life.
The Greek word zoe is used to describe this quality of spiritual life. While the word psuche is used for the life of the soul itself. And the word bios for biological life.

The life God gives is zoe life. People in hell will have psuche life, but not zoe life. IOW, they will exist and be alive in hell, but not have God's abundant quality of life.

Obviously, I have had a different understanding of the use of the phrase "eternal life." Is there someplace in Scripture that defines this more clearly or do I have to know how to read ancient Greek or Hebrew to understand this?

 

[JLB]

Obviously, I have had a different understanding of the use of the phrase "eternal life." Is there someplace in Scripture that defines this more clearly or do I have to know how to read ancient Greek or Hebrew to understand this?

Hi WIP,


Here is one reference.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3

Know here is a [idiomatic] reference to the intimate joining of a woman and a man.

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:30-33

We who are Christ's are joined to Him, spiritually, and are given life from His Spirit.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:7


And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1 John 5:11

Those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord, are sustained, or nourished or have access to the eternal life that is only found in Christ.

Scriptures teach us that if we have the Son, we have both the Father and the Son.

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23



JLB

 

[Nathan]

People in hell do not have "Eternal Life".
They will have immortality and incorruptibility (1 Cor 15:53) along with the rest of the human race. That is different from "eternal life."
Eternal life is only experienced by those who are "in Christ", members of His body. (Eph 5:30)
Those in hell experience the "second death" (apparently) for all eternity. (Rev 20:14; 21:8)

I am having trouble understanding what you mean by "They will have immortality and incorruptibility". When/where/how do they get this, and most importantly why?