What is SAVED?

[JLB]

So don't play with it, get serious with getting to know HIM."

You are assuming she isn't serious about knowing Him.




JLB

 

[JLB]

One small follow up question, you focused on the Human Effort ... what part does God play?

His power to transfer us out of the dominion of darkness.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

 

[atpollard]

How does faith fit in with this? Is not faith in He who saves also part of it? And what does that faith look like? Faith unto death perhaps? Belief, faith, and trust to the point of death and beyond, ergo, our very lives. Not just for this very moment but for ever and always and everything.

People keep debating "saved" (of OSAS/OSNAS fame) without ever explaining this "saved" that these hypothetical people are gaining and loosing beyond the word "believed". So all of this is just probing to find out what people think "saved" means. What is it that is being gained and whose potential loss os so often being debated?

I have been taking "believed" as literal and at face value for this discussion and pushing people to explain what THEY mean beyond the obvious case set up in the OP. "I" do not think the person in the OP is saved, but I am not the person so egar to define "saved" as simple "belief" with the conclusion that whily you believe, you are saved and when you stop believing, you stop being saved. So I cannot answer this question as THEY see "saved".

Now I have been told that it is not enough to just "believe", I must "believe IN Him" to be "saved". I was more than a little fuzzy on what was meant by "believing in Him" until Wondering broke it down as to what she meant:

Believe means to trust in the person you are believing in.
It means that you want to follow them.
You want them to be your teacher.
You want to do the same things they do,
and become like them.
It means to follow in the sense that they are your LORD.
Jesus is not only our Savior, He is also our LORD.
This means to make Him the master of your life.

This still only gets me to the starting line. What is "SAVED"? What is it a person has for us to duscuss if they can lose or not?

So you tell me, what is "Faith" and what part does "Faith" play in this?

[The goal of this topic, in my mind, is not to resolve any questions. It is to build a vocabulary so we can talk and understand what the words mean.]

 

[atpollard]

You are assuming she isn't serious about knowing Him.
JLB

Wow, no. no. no.
That was not my response to Wondering, that would have been my response to the person who she would warn ...

It's more as a warning not to think that one could be saved one day and then go off and never think of God again and not have a transformation because someone told them all is just fine now.

 

[JLB]

People keep debating "saved" (of OSAS/OSNAS fame) without ever explaining this "saved" that these hypothetical people are gaining and loosing beyond the word "believed".

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26


Do you have faith in Jesus Christ?


I will answer, yes.

Then you have the hope of becoming a son of God.


Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for.

The evidence of thing thing that is unseen.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25







JLB

 

[JLB]

Wow, no. no. no.
That was not my response to Wondering, that would have been my response to the person who she would warn ...

Ok, sorry I misunderstood.


My Bad.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

The Gospel message is: Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

This is the call to turn to God, in submission to His rule and authority.

This is the command of the Gospel that we are to believe/obey.

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the Lord you serve.


Repent is the command of the Gospel.

Not repent of your sins.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn away from Satan as your lord.

The way that you express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.


The way we are granted the forgiveness of sins, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.



JLB

Great explanation!

 

[atpollard]

His power to transfer us out of the dominion of darkness.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

Wow, I had no idea that you viewed salvation as being so heavily a human effort.
You have a lot of tough verses to reconcile with that view.

Suffice to say, we have slightly different perspectives on the relative efforts of God and penitent in the salvation process.
Thank you for this very civil discussion.

 

[JLB]

Great explanation!

Repent is a good thing.

It's the call for mankind to return to the top position of rule and dominion over the earth, as Jesus demonstrated.

Pent as in penthouse, refers to the highest place in a building.

We should think of re pent as "re"turning to that place of dominion that Adam lost.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Repent is a good thing.

It's the call for mankind to return to the top position of rule and dominion over the earth, as Jesus demonstrated.

Pent as in penthouse, refers to the highest place in a building.

We should think of re pent as "re"turning to that place of dominion that Adam lost.


JLB

Nice!
Never thought of it this way before.

 

[JLB]

Wow, I had no idea that you viewed salvation as being so heavily a human effort.

The power of God unto salvation.

How is that "so heavily a human effort".

God does not do the believing/obeying for us.

Believing/obeying is our work.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29


Got to go.


Will return.


Thank you for this discussion, God bless.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure, but just for the record, everything Jesus said that you quoted was easily doable pre-Resurection, so is belief in his death and resurrection even necessary?

Interesting question.
I think it's very important and I'll tell you why.

WHY is it necessary to believe in the resurrection?
The power of the Holy Spirit would have been the same, right? Jesus left our world, whether or not He was resurrected, AND He sent the Holy Spirit to be our paraclete...
stay by our side and help us.
Acts 1:8

So why is belief in the resurrection so important?
Easy answer.

WHO told us about the resurrection?
The Apostles, right?

And who are these Apostles? Can we trust anything they tell us?
If we can trust them, then we can trust everything they wrote about Jesus.
If we don't trust them, then we cannot trust anything they told us about Jesus.

The Apostles are what we could base our faith upon. It is something solid that we could depend upon.

So if they tell us Jesus was resurrected bodily, and we don't believe them --- why should we believe anything else they say?? It means they might be liars.

So we are saved by grace through faith. Faith in what? Jesus, God, as explained to us by the Apostles. If we cannot trust them, what is our faith based upon?

If Jesus did not resurrect from the dead as he predicted He would, can we trust that He is God?

We believe in the resurrection because we believe the Apostles, because they were trustworthy men of God.
1 John 1:1-4......

 

[Nathan]

This still only gets me to the starting line. What is "SAVED"? What is it a person has for us to duscuss if they can lose or not?

So you tell me, what is "Faith" and what part does "Faith" play in this?

[The goal of this topic, in my mind, is not to resolve any questions. It is to build a vocabulary so we can talk and understand what the words mean.]

SAVED = Having Faith.

This is what we discuss losing. Why it always ends up with using the phrase "the loss of salvation", is because without faith we will not receive salvation. Faith precedes salvation, and is needed to receive salvation. A future event in worldly time, but a present knowledge to those who are saved(believe and have faith).

Faith = A constant connection with God through His Spirit because of the sacrifice of His Son.

This is what a human, believer, has. This is what a believer can "lose". But, I only say that because that's what it is called in these days. I might just have to eliminate that word from my vocabulary though. The Bible never refers to it that way, except in the way of explaining the end result of falling away from the faith.


In all honesty, we should quit using the word lose and start using the correct definition. The term lose often gets confused with unknowingly misplacing of something. That's not the case with faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am a former atheist, so 'believe' is a pretty big deal to me. It did not come easily or naturally for me. So the divine revelation that God was really real, came as quite a shock. It required rethinking everything I thought I knew.

... but saved, is more than just believing. To follow Christ is to live a transformed life with your eyes and ears open to a world that you were blind and deaf to before the great transformation. This is why all of the talk of 'saved' one day and 'not saved' the next fall on deaf ears with me. The emphirical transformation makes the concept of a human alchemy capable of transforming the new creation back into the old body of sin and death inconceivable to me.

Thus this quest to learn the thought of others to the very real question: What is SAVED?

You say that saved is more than just believing and right you are.
I could believe that the escalator in front of me will get me to the next floor, but if I don't get ON IT, I'll never get to the next floor. Faith is an action, it's a doing.

But what are we saved from or to?

To find out what "saved" is, we have to look under salvation in any study bible.
There is much there and I encourage you to look it up.

Saved:
We are healed Mark 6:56
We are rescued from physical danger Mathew 8:25
We are rescued from our enemies Psalm 18:3

We are saved from sin:
O.T. Psalm 39:8
We will be saved by the Messiah Ezekiel 37:23

N.T.
We have been saved Ephesians 2:5-8
We will are being saved 1 Co 1:18
We will be saved Romans 5:9-10

God is the source of our salvation:
He is called Savior Psalm 25:5
He is Israel's salvation Ex 15:1-2
He promised worldwide salvation Isaiah 49:6

Christ is our Savior because.
salvation is in His name alone Acts 4:12
He is called Savior Luke 2:11
He saves His people from sin Mathew 1:21
He saves the lost Luke 15:3
He saves the world John 3:16-17

Salvation requires the work of Christ 2 Co 8:9
His death on the cross John 3:14-15
The shedding of His blood 1 Peter 1:18-19
His resurrection from the dead Romans 10:9
His ascension into heaven Acts 5:31

Salvation comes as a gift from God
His love, His grace, His mercy
Romans 5:8-9
Titus 2:11
1 Peter 1:3

Requirements for salvation:
Believe in Jesus Acts 16:30-31
Repent of sins Acts 2:37-38
Accept salvation Rev 21:6
We can do nothing to earn it Eph 2:8-9
Give OUR ALL IN RESPONSE Mathew 13:44, John 15:4, John 3:36

Taken from the Zondervan NIV Study Bible

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

So we are saved to have a better life here on earth in all the ways described above.
If for no other reason, than that if we follow God's rules we will always be happier for it. God wants what is good for us - satan desires to make us miserable.

And, we are also saved for a happy life with God after death.
I'm sure others can add to this.

Salvation of a person makes God happy, but it is for our benefit. For now and for after.
Luke 15:7

 

[GodsGrace]

SAVED = Having Faith.

This is what we discuss losing. Why it always ends up with using the phrase "the loss of salvation", is because without faith we will not receive salvation. Faith precedes salvation, and is needed to receive salvation. A future event in worldly time, but a present knowledge to those who are saved(believe and have faith).

Faith = A constant connection with God through His Spirit because of the sacrifice of His Son.

This is what a human, believer, has. This is what a believer can "lose". But, I only say that because that's what it is called in these days. I might just have to eliminate that word from my vocabulary though. The Bible never refers to it that way, except in the way of explaining the end result of falling away from the faith.


In all honesty, we should quit using the word lose and start using the correct definition. The term lose often gets confused with unknowingly misplacing of something. That's not the case with faith.

I agree.
I also don't like the word lose.
I like the term "throw away" better.

But what word were YOU thinking of?
Falling Away?

You will be told that you fall away from a relationship, NOT salvation.
There is no adequate word Nathan...!

 

[Nathan]

I agree.
I also don't like the word lose.
I like the term "throw away" better.

But what word were YOU thinking of?
Falling Away?

You will be told that you fall away from a relationship, NOT salvation.
There is no adequate word Nathan...!

Well, I agree that people will say that its a relationship that is "fallen away" from, and I would agree with them. However, we cannot exclude salvation from the relationship. So, if you fall away from the relationship, you fall away from salvation.

Fall away is the right term. Separated would be the specific word I would use though. Often "falling" indicates a mistake(even though it really is a mistake), but a mistake that happens accidentally. We know this is not true. It is no accident.

Separation is the best word to use. You then can understand that there is a distance now. No connection. If you are not connected to Christ, then how can you be connected to Salvation?

 

[WIP]

People keep debating "saved" (of OSAS/OSNAS fame) without ever explaining this "saved" that these hypothetical people are gaining and loosing beyond the word "believed". So all of this is just probing to find out what people think "saved" means. What is it that is being gained and whose potential loss os so often being debated?

I have been taking "believed" as literal and at face value for this discussion and pushing people to explain what THEY mean beyond the obvious case set up in the OP. "I" do not think the person in the OP is saved, but I am not the person so egar to define "saved" as simple "belief" with the conclusion that whily you believe, you are saved and when you stop believing, you stop being saved. So I cannot answer this question as THEY see "saved".

Now I have been told that it is not enough to just "believe", I must "believe IN Him" to be "saved". I was more than a little fuzzy on what was meant by "believing in Him" until Wondering broke it down as to what she meant:


This still only gets me to the starting line. What is "SAVED"? What is it a person has for us to duscuss if they can lose or not?

So you tell me, what is "Faith" and what part does "Faith" play in this?

[The goal of this topic, in my mind, is not to resolve any questions. It is to build a vocabulary so we can talk and understand what the words mean.]

When we get into an airplane we trust or have faith that everything will work so that once we leave the ground the plane will remain aloft until we land safely at our destination. We also trust or have faith that the pilot is telling the truth that (s)he does in fact know what (s)he is doing and can get the job done. But how far does that faith go? When we run into dangerous turbulence and the plane begins to rock, roll, dive, or suddenly drop a thousand feet or more how much faith do we have then? Do we just continue to enjoy the ride without a care or do we suddenly feel unsure, apprehensive, or anxious about what may or may not happen?

Having saving faith in Jesus as I understand it is to be secure enough in one's faith to ride out the turbulence without any thought at all to any of the other numerous possible outcomes because I know Him who saves has the power to overcome anything, and I mean anything, including death itself.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."
John 14:12 NKJV

And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” Then Peter said, “See, we have left all and followed You.” So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Luke 18:24-30 NKJV

The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.
Psalm 23 NKJV

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I agree that people will say that its a relationship that is "fallen away" from, and I would agree with them. However, we cannot exclude salvation from the relationship. So, if you fall away from the relationship, you fall away from salvation.

Fall away is the right term. Separated would be the specific word I would use though. Often "falling" indicates a mistake(even though it really is a mistake), but a mistake that happens accidentally. We know this is not true. It is no accident.

Separation is the best word to use. You then can understand that there is a distance now. No connection. If you are not connected to Christ, then how can you be connected to Salvation?

Nice.
I like how you try to come to a common understanding of words. This is a big plus when communicating.

So, OSA
OR
it is possible to AGAIN BECOME SEPARATED FROM CHRIST.

You like how that sounds?
It's a battle you won't win though.
non- OSAS seems to be the word.
(I hate it)

 

[atpollard]

Accept salvation Rev 21:6

How does this verse indicate that WE must "accept" salvation. It seems to just be about Jesus freely giving to anyone that "thirsts" (has need).

Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. [NKJV]

 

[GodsGrace]

When we get into an airplane we trust or have faith that everything will work so that once we leave the ground the plane will remain aloft until we land safely at our destination. We also trust or have faith that the pilot is telling the truth that (s)he does in fact know what (s)he is doing and can get the job done. But how far does that faith go? When we run into dangerous turbulence and the plane begins to rock, roll, dive, or suddenly drop a thousand feet or more how much faith do we have then? Do we just continue to enjoy the ride without a care or do we suddenly feel unsure, apprehensive, or anxious about what may or may not happen?

Having saving faith in Jesus as I understand it is to be secure enough in one's faith to ride out the turbulence without any thought at all to any of the other numerous possible outcomes because I know Him who saves has the power to overcome anything, and I mean anything, including death itself.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."
John 14:12 NKJV

And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” Then Peter said, “See, we have left all and followed You.” So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Luke 18:24-30 NKJV

The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.
Psalm 23 NKJV

WIP
You're setting a very high standard.
It's a little scary.
You mean--- I have to have A CERTAIN AMOUNT of faith??
As humans, I don't know if we ever trust anyone 100%.

Jesus said all we needed was the faith of a mustard seed.
I like to think that ANY AMOUNT of faith in Him will be my salvation.

Hebrews 11:1 tells me that faith is confidence in what we hope for.
I do have confidence in what Jesus preached.

Hebrews 11:6 tell me that without faith it is impossible to please God and that whoever EARNESTLY SEEKS Him will be rewarded.

Romans 14:1 tells me to accept one whose faith is weak. Even weak faith is good faith. (we hope for the growth of all faith).