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Another one,

Can the predestined ones keep on sinning?

Reason I ask is lets say Joe is having a hard time with this faith thing. Then he happens along here and reads that if he is predestined then he is guaranteed eternal life. Great he thinks. But wait, how does he know he is predestined? Oh, he sees that if it does not bother him then he wouldn't be predestined. So that's good, he is predestined. But wait, he still see's himself sinning. Does he worry or not about the sinning? I mean, does he need to quit or wait for God to stop him? But if he is predestined, what does it matter anyways right?
 
Eternal Life before one is even born. Interesting. Its not that I do not believe that God knows who and who will not believe, and knew before He created the world - its just that I do not find that Eternal Life is given before birth, as in actually given. Is this clear in the Bible? Passage we can reference?
The closest thing I can think of is the Golden Chain:

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[fn] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Note that from "foreknew" (eternity past) to "glorified" (eternal life) are all in the past tense. It is a done deal! The names are already in the book.
[That and "he" is the one who did all of it, not "you" or "we".]
 
The closest thing I can think of is the Golden Chain:

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[fn] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Note that from "foreknew" (eternity past) to "glorified" (eternal life) are all in the past tense. It is a done deal! The names are already in the book.
[That and "he" is the one who did all of it, not "you" or "we".]

Thanks, I see that it says those who love him. So you could probably know if you are predestined if you love God right?
 
These ones who are given eternal life before birth, do they sin? If they do sin, is their sin different than people who do not receive eternal life before birth?
I think it is more of a manifest destiny ... like being the prince who will inherit the throne one day. You still can get a spanking from the queen for talking back, but that doesn't change your destiny. :)
 
Thanks, I see that it says those who love him. So you could probably know if you are predestined if you love God right?
Yeah, since the natural state is being a hater of God (which if not an active hater, will at least be a state of rebellion against God trying to run your life.)
 
The closest thing I can think of is the Golden Chain:

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[fn] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Note that from "foreknew" (eternity past) to "glorified" (eternal life) are all in the past tense. It is a done deal! The names are already in the book.
[That and "he" is the one who did all of it, not "you" or "we".]

Why did God call them? What does that mean?
 
I think it is more of a manifest destiny ... like being the prince who will inherit the throne one day. You still can get a spanking from the queen for talking back, but that doesn't change your destiny. :)
What if the prince dies before inheriting the throne?
 
I believe that a person being apart from Christ after truly being IN CHRIST is an absurdity. It would be like asking "What if I decided I wanted to be physically unborn?

Being a son of God does mean you can't be cast into hell.

You don't have to be unborn to be cast into hell.

Just ask Lucifer if you don't believe me, or the angels who sinned during the days of Noah.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered theminto chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
2 Peter 2:4




JLB
 
Yeah, since the natural state is being a hater of God (which if not an active hater, will at least be a state of rebellion against God trying to run your life.)
But it doesn't matter if I rebel right? Because God will make me not eventually? So I don't have to be concerned about sin anymore? As long as I know I'm predestined first of course, right?
 
I can't not worry, because then it might mean I'm not predestined. But why would I worry if God is gonna take care of it all?

So many questions
 
Sorry, you are not correctly applying Revelation 21. The entire context is after God has made all things new. The time for human choice is long past. It is a statement of fact about how things are in the new heaven and earth.

There may be verses that support human acceptance and rejection of salvation, but it is not found in Revelation 21.

Revelation 21:1-6 [NKJV]
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
How am I not correctly applying Rev 21???
What am I applying it to?

I stated that if you read on, you would find who is NOT going to inherit the new earth.
Not ALL men are going to inherit the new earth.
That is Rev 21:7 and on.
I'm referring to my post no. 62.

You had said God was giving a gift freely, if I remember.
I said yes, but not to everyone - since YOU brought up the Alpha and the Omega and the thirsting.
 
But why would they need to come to their senses? If they are predestined to go, wouldn't they just go?

Why would the Bible always talk about Christ sacrifice for the world? Wouldn't the writers know that it was just for the predestined ones?

So if the matter bothers me, then I am predestined. Interesting. Why would it bother me? If I was predestined, had no choice in the matter, why wouldn't God put my mind at ease?
Your second paragraph is a great point.
And why would the writers of the N.T. EXHORT us to hold on to our faith, keep abiding in Christ, not fall away, etc etc, if God had everything predestined anyway?

Problem is that persons read what they understand,
not the other way around...
We should UNDERSTAND what we READ.

Seems like we make up our mind FIRST, and then read looking to confirm what our mind already seems to know...
 
One of the few really big questions that I have a good answer for ... if you were not predestined, then the matter would not bother you at all:
"The one who dies with the most toys, wins." was the motto of those I grew up with. The ones still alive view me as one of those religious nuts. I suspect that if the thought of predestination or hell ever enters their thoughts, it is only for a few minutes and is nothing another beer will not fix.

I don't see it in Jesus nature to slam the door on anyone who wants in. It seems more like Jesus dragging some in kicking and screaming until they come to their senses.
Can I ask you atpollard, are you a five point Calvinist?
 
Question, do the predestined ones need to believe in what the Bible says, or just that their predestined?

Can you believe in just one, or does it need to be both?
 
My, you are full of questions, aren't you? :)
I'll do my best, but remember ... I'm just a schmo trying to figure it all out, too.

But why would they need to come to their senses? If they are predestined to go, wouldn't they just go?
We are fallen and evil. We come pre-cursed with the consequences of the sins of our parents "to the third and fourth generation". There are "powers and principalities and rulers of this age" who mean us harm. We have a fallen nature that impacts our "not free" will. ... Have you ever met the adult children of an alcoholic? As a rule, they either grow up to become a chip off the old block, or they rebel and become 100% the opposite of their parents, or they are forced to struggle to somehow deal with the scars of the past. Different children, exposed to the same abuse, have such different results. The difference must be internal. So we are all exposed to such a variety of sin, why should we not respond differently and why should God not need different methods to save different sheep?

Changing focus slightly, it isn't all about us. I find I need a constant reminder that my comfort and happiness is NOT God's highest priority. I was saved for the same reason that I was created ... for God's glory. That means that God has plans at work and things to demonstrate that are more important than me. I am one of those people who have a dramatic story of being a sinner and being saved by the sovereign act of God's grace and mercy. People like to hear it in churches, but I hate to tell it. Most of the time, people get the wrong idea. I did nothing praiseworthy. It was never about me or my choices (except for the sin, that was my decision). It is ironic, but what really fascinates me is the story of someone who grew up in a Christian home and was saved at such a young age that they can't even remember a time when God wasn't a friend. That is so alien of a life and concept to me.

I have come to the conclusion that both serve a purpose. God saves people like me so that he can show and I can testify that no one is beyond the reach of God. I personally think that God chose to save me just to prove that he could do it. He selected someone least likely and utterly undeserving, and did it just to prove that he could. As for the people who get saved growing up in the faith, I think that God does it to reveal just how faithful he is ... showing compassion to a thousand generations that love him and serve him.

Why would the Bible always talk about Christ sacrifice for the world? Wouldn't the writers know that it was just for the predestined ones?
More speculation than usual here. Let's start with the obvious ... it can't mean every person in the whole wide world, because that would require universalism and then the parts about eternal punishment don't make sense.
So looking at it from an OT perspective, if you were a Jew (child of Israel) then you had access to the Temple and forgiveness of sins. If you were anyone else, sorry but you are damned (if they had hell, actually, you are an enemy of God and worm food). Along comes Jesus and SALVATION is for Jew and Greek alike ... the whole world united by one Gospel.

Honestly, I had accepted all of the points of Calvinism except this one before I ever heard of Reformed Theology or Calvinism or TULIP ... just from reading scripture for myself. This is an argument that I care least about. Here are your two Theological Choices ...
1. Jesus Death forgave all sin ... but was somehow ineffective for most people (they are going to Hell).
2. Jesus Death was 100% effective ... but only applied to some people (those going to heaven).
So, pick your poison. :shrug


So if the matter bothers me, then I am predestined. Interesting. Why would it bother me? If I was predestined, had no choice in the matter, why wouldn't God put my mind at ease?
I guess that depends on why it bothers you.
Do you want to be in charge of your salvation?
Are you afraid you are not saved now?
Are you afraid you might fall away in the future?
Does it seem unfair to the unsaved?
 
My, you are full of questions, aren't you? :)
I'll do my best, but remember ... I'm just a schmo trying to figure it all out, too.


We are fallen and evil. We come pre-cursed with the consequences of the sins of our parents "to the third and fourth generation". There are "powers and principalities and rulers of this age" who mean us harm. We have a fallen nature that impacts our "not free" will. ... Have you ever met the adult children of an alcoholic? As a rule, they either grow up to become a chip off the old block, or they rebel and become 100% the opposite of their parents, or they are forced to struggle to somehow deal with the scars of the past. Different children, exposed to the same abuse, have such different results. The difference must be internal. So we are all exposed to such a variety of sin, why should we not respond differently and why should God not need different methods to save different sheep?

Changing focus slightly, it isn't all about us. I find I need a constant reminder that my comfort and happiness is NOT God's highest priority. I was saved for the same reason that I was created ... for God's glory. That means that God has plans at work and things to demonstrate that are more important than me. I am one of those people who have a dramatic story of being a sinner and being saved by the sovereign act of God's grace and mercy. People like to hear it in churches, but I hate to tell it. Most of the time, people get the wrong idea. I did nothing praiseworthy. It was never about me or my choices (except for the sin, that was my decision). It is ironic, but what really fascinates me is the story of someone who grew up in a Christian home and was saved at such a young age that they can't even remember a time when God wasn't a friend. That is so alien of a life and concept to me.

I have come to the conclusion that both serve a purpose. God saves people like me so that he can show and I can testify that no one is beyond the reach of God. I personally think that God chose to save me just to prove that he could do it. He selected someone least likely and utterly undeserving, and did it just to prove that he could. As for the people who get saved growing up in the faith, I think that God does it to reveal just how faithful he is ... showing compassion to a thousand generations that love him and serve him.


More speculation than usual here. Let's start with the obvious ... it can't mean every person in the whole wide world, because that would require universalism and then the parts about eternal punishment don't make sense.
So looking at it from an OT perspective, if you were a Jew (child of Israel) then you had access to the Temple and forgiveness of sins. If you were anyone else, sorry but you are damned (if they had hell, actually, you are an enemy of God and worm food). Along comes Jesus and SALVATION is for Jew and Greek alike ... the whole world united by one Gospel.

Honestly, I had accepted all of the points of Calvinism except this one before I ever heard of Reformed Theology or Calvinism or TULIP ... just from reading scripture for myself. This is an argument that I care least about. Here are your two Theological Choices ...
1. Jesus Death forgave all sin ... but was somehow ineffective for most people (they are going to Hell).
2. Jesus Death was 100% effective ... but only applied to some people (those going to heaven).
So, pick your poison. :shrug



I guess that depends on why it bothers you.
Do you want to be in charge of your salvation?
Are you afraid you are not saved now?
Are you afraid you might fall away in the future?
Does it seem unfair to the unsaved?
We are NOT cursed with the sins of our fathers to the third and fourth generation.

What did Jesus say regarding this?
I must go but could not let this go by.
 
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