atpollard
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Judas?
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Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible
- Thread starter Nathan
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Nathan
Member
So you don't see an issue with God not being sovereign enough to have foreknowledge of those who would believe? That's what Calvinism says, that somehow God didn't know what was going to happen, and in that state of unknowing He chose to elect some, but leave others without a chance of belief.
You know for yourself that God is a just and holy God. To confine some under the power of satan, then not allow a way of escape, and then judge them on what they could not escape? Is that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Isaiah 48:1-11
1 Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and who came from the waters of Judah, who swear by the name of the LORD and confess the God of Israel, but not in truth or right.
2 For they call themselves after the holy city, and stay themselves on the God of Israel; the LORD of hosts is his name.
3 "The former things I declared of old; they went out from my mouth, and I announced them; then suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.
4 Because I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead brass,
5 I declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, 'My idol did them, my carved image and my metal image commanded them.'
6 "You have heard; now see all this; and will you not declare it? From this time forth I announce to you new things, hidden things that you have not known.
7 They are created now, not long ago; before today you have never heard of them, lest you should say, 'Behold, I knew them.'
8 You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
9 "For my name's sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
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Nathan
Member
Judas was prophesied about interestingly enough;
Isaiah 50:10-11
10 Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the voice of his servant? Let him who walks in darkness and has no light trust in the name of the LORD and rely on his God.
11 Behold, all you who kindle a fire, who equip yourselves with burning torches! Walk by the light of your fire, and by the torches that you have kindled! This you have from my hand: you shall lie down in torment.
Nathan
Member
I think it goes back even before that actually. Abram was also apart of predestination and election.
The tuff part about studying something like this is that some don't see it in its entirety. Point being, the end result of those predestined and elected is salvation, the point of predestination and election is to fulfill Gods purpose - which one aspect is salvation. So some do see this aspect and think its the only part of predestination and election.
Nathan
Member
Yes, I understand it to that no one - none - can even believe unless God calls them. No one seeks after God. Those who fall away do so because their desire for their own 'gods' harden their heart toward the one who called them.
Isaiah 1:1-20
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O hearth;
for the LORD has spoken:
“Children have I reared and brought up,
but they have rebelled against me.
The ox knows its owner,
and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”
Ah, sinful nation,
a people laden with iniquity,
offspring of evildoers,
children who deal corruptly!
They have forsaken the LORD,
they have despised the Holy One of Israel,
they are utterly estranged.
Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil.
Your country lies desolate;
your cities are burned with fire;
in your very presence
foreigners devour your land;
it is desolate, as overthrown by foreigners.
And the daughter of Zion is left
like a booth in a vineyard,
like a lodge in a cucumber field,
like a besieged city.
If the LORD of hosts
had not left us a few survivors,
we should have been like Sodom,
and become like Gomorrah.
Hear the word of the LORD,
you rulers of Sodom!
Give ear to the teaching of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the LORD;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.
“When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.
“Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be eaten by the sword;
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
Isaiah 57:1-13
The righteous man perishes,
and no one lays it to heart;
devout men are taken away,
while no one understands.
For the righteous man is taken away from calamity;
he enters into peace;
they rest in their beds
who walk in their uprightness.
But you, draw near,
sons of the sorceress,
offspring of the adulterer and the loose woman.
Whom are you mocking?
Against whom do you open your mouth wide
and stick out your tongue?
Are you not children of transgression,
the offspring of deceit,
you who burn with lust among the oaks,
under every green tree,
who slaughter your children in the valleys,
under the clefts of the rocks?
Among the smooth stones of the valley is your portion;
they, they, are your lot;
to them you have poured out a drink offering,
you have brought a grain offering.
Shall I relent for these things?
On a high and lofty mountain
you have set your bed,
and there you went up to offer sacrifice.
Behind the door and the doorpost
you have set up your memorial;
for, deserting me, you have uncovered your bed,
you have gone up to it,
you have made it wide;
and you have made a covenant for yourself with them,
you have loved their bed,
you have looked on nakedness.
You journeyed to the king with oil
and multiplied your perfumes;
you sent your envoys far off,
and sent down even to Sheol.
You were wearied with the length of your way,
but you did not say, “It is hopeless”;
you found new life for your strength,
and so you were not faint.
Whom did you dread and fear,
so that you lied,
and did not remember me,
did not lay it to heart?
Have I not held my peace, even for a long time,
and you do not fear me?
I will declare your righteousness and your deeds,
but they will not profit you.
When you cry out, let your collection of idols deliver you!
The wind will carry them all off,
a breath will take them away.
But he who takes refuge in me shall possess the land
and shall inherit my holy mountain.
Nathan
Member
I did. That is what is so confusing about it. First they say God has foreknowledge, then when it comes to predestination and election specifically, they say it has nothing to do with Gods foreknowledge.
Butch5
Member
This passage in Ephesians is a Hebrew praise to God. In verses 3-12 Paul is praising God for what He's done for the the Jewish people. This passage isn't speaking of the Gentiles believers. It is Israel that was chosen by God. It is Israel that was predestined to adoption. This whole section speaks of Gods blessings on Israel.
Nathan
Member
In other passages, Ephesians being one, election is used to help the readers understand that God called them. That He has a plan for them. That the end of that plan is salvation.
That's how it's connected to salvation.
But as you say, if God had determined some to be 'destined' to wickedness - aside from a way to repent - then we would have indication of it somewhere. We don't.
In Isaiah God clearly states that those who will not turn from wickedness do so because they choose not to - not because God does not allow it.
Nathan
Member
Gentile believers were grafted into the same tree, becoming partakers with Israel after the flesh - thereby receiving adoption as sons - thereby receiving the blessings of God.
It is now a praise that all believers, Jew and gentile, can give to God.
atpollard
Member
Romans 8 [NKJV]
Free from Indwelling Sin
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[fn]who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Sonship Through the Spirit
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
From Suffering to Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[fn] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[fn]
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Respectfully, how can Romans Chaper 8 be about a promise to Abraham and NOT about Salvation?
Butch5
Member
I would submit that the goal of predestination and election is fulfilling the promises, not the salvation of those men. Many believe that if one is predestined and elect their salvation is certain. It is my contention that that is not the purpose of predestination and election.
Butch5
Member
The point is that Paul is talking about the Jewish people in that section. He is not including Gentiles believers there. It is not the Gentiles that were predestined before the foundation of the world it was Israel. If you take note of the pronouns in verse 3-12 Paul uses first person pronouns, us, we, our. In verse 13 he switches to second person pronouns, you and your. He's drawing a distinction between two different groups, us and you. Paul includes himself in the first group, the "us" group. Of this group he says in verse 12,
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ (Eph. 1:12 KJV)
A better translation is before hoped in the Christ. It was the Jews who had previously hoped in the Christ, not the Gentiles.
Nathan
Member
I see what your saying. But I would think you agree that the final promise to fulfill is salvation to all those who are offspring of Abraham.
Predestination and election viewed wrong does impart the notion that salvation is certain - without accounting for all that comes with predestination and election.
When viewed for what it truly is, a person can understand that salvation is indeed certain - so long as one continues in the faith. Salvation is assured to those who believe by faith. Leave faith - leave salvation.
But honestly that is a different topic, although it's associated, but it's just a part of predestination and election.
The "main" thing behind predestination and election is the conforming of the believer into Christ. That is why it's talked about so much to the gentile believers, because they are/were not naturally apart of the tree. They were grafted in, therefore they need to understand what the root nourishes them with. Natural branches that were broken off understand what the root is.
Nathan
Member
I would disagree greatly.
Jews did not need to be adopted as sons. They were naturally sons. Gentiles had to be adopted as sons.
Isaiah is clear that God foreordained a nation, who was not His people, to become His people. It was predestined to happen.
Isaiah 55&56 deal with this.
Butch5
Member
Most of the Bible is about the promises made to Abraham. In a previous post I pointed out that Romans 2:17-11:12 is addressed to the Jewish believers in the church at Rome. In chapter 8 Paul begins to encourage his readers. He explains how the whole creation is groaning and awaiting the restoration. In verse 28 he writes that God works all things together for good to those who love Him. To those who are called according to His purpose. The begs the question, what is His purpose? His purpose is the fulfillment of the promises He made to Abraham.
1.That Abraham would inherit the land.
2. That he would be come the father of a great nation.
3. That he would be the father of many nations, and
4. That all nations would be blessed through him.
Paul spends the next three chapters explaining how God is doing this. Chapter 9 begins his explanation.
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effecb. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.1 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (Rom. 9:1 KJV)
The fathers are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all of which he mentions here in the beginning of chapter 9. To them belongs the promises, the land, the adoption, the covenants, and it was concerning them that Christ came. You have the purpose of Predestination and election right there. God promised Abraham that through his seed all nations would be blessed. Christ is the seed of Abraham through which all nations would be blessed. Paul tells us this in Galatians.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.1 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Gal. 3:1 KJV)
Here Paul says here that when the promises were made to Abraham and his Seed God did not mean seed plural but seed singular, and that Seed is Christ. Predestination and Election were for the purpose of fulfilling this promise to Abraham which was to bring the Seed who is Christ. Christ is ultimately the Chosen Seed.
Butch5
Member
Did you look at the two groups I mentioned?
In Romans 9 Paul said the adoption belongs to Israel.
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom. 9:1 KJV)
Butch5
Member
Yes, however, in Paul's day he literally had to deal with some people who were physically Jewish and some who were physically Gentiles. As such he addresses them differently at different times. Keep in mind that Paul had quite a few problems meshing Jews and Gentiles together. He had a big problem with Judaizers who were telling the Gentile converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to keep the Law of Moses and be circumcised.
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Acts 15:1 KJV)
This is was a big problem for Paul.