Growth Why was Paul given all the advanced revelation by Yeshua?

[Kidron]

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Paul is an intellectual, and he is a zealot.. So, perhaps God needed this >type< to comprehend the deeper mysteries of the Faith and expound them to the Body Of Christ, vs "fishermen".

Something else about Paul is that he stated in (Philippians Chapter 3) about himself, that he is "blameless in the law" ........and that is pretty amazing.

Perhaps this is another reason he was specifically chosen by Yeshua to receive so much advanced (doctrinal) revelation.

What i do know, is that there is light years between what Paul teaches about Justification vs what the other Apostle were teaching for salvation, UNTIL Paul's teaching found its way to all of them.

At the end of Peter's life, he refers to the letters of Paul as having the same authority as his Torah.....as he compares Paul's letters to "the Scriptures", in 2nd Peter Chapter 3.......and of course Peter's final analysis of Paul's letters is still true 2000 years later, as Paul's letters created most of the New Testament and nearly 100% of the Doctrine's the Body of Christ trusts as absolute truth.

What i have discovered about Christians who have issues with understanding Grace and hate (OSAS), is that they all without exception have a "study deficit" regarding :

Romans

Galatians

Ephesians

Philippians

Colossians

And its in THOSE Pauline epistles that you are given the same revelation that God gave Paul so that we understand the Atonement, Redemption, Justification.

We as believers are told that we must have our hearts established with Grace, and that is to say a deep understanding and heart connection, and if we dont then we will "Fall from Grace", and that is what you find on every Christian forum and in so many denominations...... You have believers who cant even define Grace while attacking the clear teaching of it as "hyper", and this is because they have not studied Paul's letters to get the LIGHT< and so without this they become legalists who simply need to study those epistle's of Paul's i listed for a while.


<K><

 

[Nathan]

Peter never said that Paul's letters should be viewed as the same authority as the Scriptures are.

Rather, Peter was stating that because Paul taught from the Scriptures, that his teachings from the Scriptures were often twisted just like the people twisted the rest of the Scriptures.

Paul explained the Gospel from the Scriptures. Any teaching today should be able to be held up to the light of the Scriptures and proven as truth. However, we find people trying to take the New Testament teachings and twist them - and in doing so they also have to twist the Scriptures - in order to fit their doctrine. Just as they were doing in Peter's time.

I think Paul was chosen because of his knowledge of the Scriptures - no doubt. And that is precisely why we should examine all of the doctrines presented to us, *edit - if based on the letters of Paul, in the light of the Scriptures Paul taught from. Just like the Berean's did.

Paul did not teach from the New Testament - He taught from what we know of as the Old Testament - "The Scriptures".

 

[Eugene]

Paul did not teach from the New Testament - He taught from what we know of as the Old Testament - "The Scriptures".

How does that line up with Gal 1:11-12? But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ (And this by our risen Savior as opposed to Jesus personally among the other apostles).

Where in the Old Testament does Paul teach the following scriptures?
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Peter did realize that Paul preached the truth in his epistles, but admittedly hard to be understood; WHAT? If all Paul preached was Old Testament, wouldn’t Peter also have had access to them?
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood . . .

 

[Nathan]

How does that line up with Gal 1:11-12? But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ (And this by our risen Savior as opposed to Jesus personally among the other apostles).

Where in the Old Testament does Paul teach the following scriptures?
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Peter did realize that Paul preached the truth in his epistles, but admittedly hard to be understood; WHAT? If all Paul preached was Old Testament, wouldn’t Peter also have had access to them?
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood . . .

It actually lines up on a number of levels - not least of which is the simple fact there was no New Testament at that time. Next, we can see a number of direct Old Testament references, and many indirect ones.

Paul was shown the 'mystery' of the Gospel, that the Old Testament had spoken about - yet had not revealed - it was kept "secrete" to them at that time.

Rom 16:25-27
Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Paul is not saying that his revelation was not from Jesus the Christ, what he is saying is that through the prophetic writings(OT) it is made known to us as truth. Paul never states that it was not spoken of before, just that it was not understood before.

Eph 3:1-3
For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles—assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.

The mystery, which was written about in the Old Testament, was made known to Paul by revelation. There is a difference between something new being told him, and something old being revealed to him.

Here are Paul's clear - and plain - words that he states he teaches about, and the Old Testament bears witness to, the revelation given to him.

Act 26:13-29

At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language,‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

“Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass: that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles.”

And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind.” But Paul said, “I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I am speaking true and rational words. For the king knows about these things, and to him I speak boldly. For I am persuaded that none of these things has escaped his notice, for this has not been done in a corner. King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe." And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?” And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.”

Paul plainly - and clearly - defends his own revelation and teaching based on the Old Testament. Festus was being obstinate, so Paul reasons with him by asking/stating if/since he believed the prophets - he should also believe Paul.

Again, Paul taught truths that were revealed - but previously prophesied about from the Old Testament. It was not "new" as never heard of before - just hidden from the understanding of those who were writing about it.

If it was not clear enough from the previous passage, here we see again.

Act 28:23-25

When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved. And disagreeing among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement: “The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:

“‘Go to this people, and say,
“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed;
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.”

 

[Nathan]

Peter did realize that Paul preached the truth in his epistles, but admittedly hard to be understood; WHAT? If all Paul preached was Old Testament, wouldn’t Peter also have had access to them?
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood . . .

Just to speak about this aspect of it - wisdom is the understanding Paul was given(revelation) of what Moses and the Prophets wrote about. It was not a "new" wisdom but one that is "revealed" to Paul.

1Pe 1:10-12
Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

The prophets wrote about the things Paul taught, and they earnestly wanted to know what it was they were writing about, but they were told it was not for their time - but for our time to be revealed.

Don't pass over this passage too quickly. The prophets, who wrote about what was going to be revealed to us(through Paul's teaching), were serving us!

What a marvelous mystery!

 

[Eugene]

The prophets wrote about the things Paul taught, and they earnestly wanted to know what it was they were writing about, but they were told it was not for their time - but for our time to be revealed.

Don't pass over this passage too quickly. The prophets, who wrote about what was going to be revealed to us(through Paul's teaching), were serving us!

Which scriptures did the Old Testament prophets write that were hidden? I do see Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end, but its events were told him.

My thoughts were that the prophets had no idea those things hidden from them such as revealed to Paul we read of in Col 1:26-27. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Thanks

 

[Nathan]

Which scriptures did the Old Testament prophets write that were hidden? I do see Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end, but its events were told him.

My thoughts were that the prophets had no idea those things hidden from them such as revealed to Paul we read of in Col 1:26-27. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Thanks

There are more passages than can be posted that contain the mystery of Jesus being the Christ and the one to bring Gentiles to God through faith.

One that comes to mind immediately is;

Isaiah 42:1 (ESV) 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.

Also;

Psalm 2:8 (ESV) 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.

Your correct, the prophets did not know what they were writing about. They simply just wrote down what God told them too. God did not tell them they were writing a mystery, they just did not understand what they were writing about fully. The mystery was simply not understood until Paul taught it.

Once he started teaching it, using Moses and the Prophets(Old Testament) as proof, then those who heard understood all the writings that were written.

Paul, nor anyone else, claimed that what they taught was in addition to, muchless a replacement of, the Old Testament. What they taught was the truths that were revealed to them, but already written about, by Moses and the Prophets.

Those passages in Acts I quoted are quite clear about this are they not?

 

[Eugene]

To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass: that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles.

Act 28:23-25
When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

I liked your application of Acts and is true concerning Israel, and then comes in Paul’s defense in Act 28:28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

But of necessity there must be exact quotations somewhere in the Old Testament showing us, the body of Christ as the hope of glory whether the prophets writing it understood it or not. Not remembering any such verses at this moment, the original apostles and others among them were watching for the kingdom to appear with Jesus as its Head, thus the question: Mat 24:3, And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Not knowing your terminology for different events, I use the thought of Kingdom Age as the time all Israel shall be saved of Rom 11:26. We of this present time weren’t even thought of as those Jesus would take a people for His name’s sake

Part of Israel’s ignorance were due to spiritual arrogance we read of in Rom 11:25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Even after Jesus’ passion and resurrection believers set up a manner of kingdom living such as having all things in common, and were highly angered when Stephen preached Jesus standing at the right hand of God, (I think presumably because Jesus was there without them) in Acts 7:58.

There is also Act 15:14 where, Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (Is this possibly the idea that Jesus is to have His bride from among the Gentiles?- Us in Him as the hope of glory?)
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: (A Bible note shows this to be from Amos 9:11-12)

I hope I’m not running you in circles due to my misunderstanding, but I continue to believe that where Paul mentions having been given the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God In Col 1:25, it pertained to more than just clearing up ignorance of what they wrote.

Again thanks for your time.

 

[Nathan]

I liked your application of Acts and is true concerning Israel, and then comes in Paul’s defense in Act 28:28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

But of necessity there must be exact quotations somewhere in the Old Testament showing us, the body of Christ as the hope of glory whether the prophets writing it understood it or not. Not remembering any such verses at this moment, the original apostles and others among them were watching for the kingdom to appear with Jesus as its Head, thus the question: Mat 24:3, And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Not knowing your terminology for different events, I use the thought of Kingdom Age as the time all Israel shall be saved of Rom 11:26. We of this present time weren’t even thought of as those Jesus would take a people for His name’s sake

Part of Israel’s ignorance were due to spiritual arrogance we read of in Rom 11:25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Even after Jesus’ passion and resurrection believers set up a manner of kingdom living such as having all things in common, and were highly angered when Stephen preached Jesus standing at the right hand of God, (I think presumably because Jesus was there without them) in Acts 7:58.

There is also Act 15:14 where, Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (Is this possibly the idea that Jesus is to have His bride from among the Gentiles?- Us in Him as the hope of glory?)
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: (A Bible note shows this to be from Amos 9:11-12)

I hope I’m not running you in circles due to my misunderstanding, but I continue to believe that where Paul mentions having been given the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God In Col 1:25, it pertained to more than just clearing up ignorance of what they wrote.

Again thanks for your time.

No circles here. . I really enjoy discussing things like this. Your post does touch on a lot so I might not fully be able to respond to it all.

I honestly believe most misunderstanding of Paul's role in the Faith, and his revelation given, comes from the teaching and belief of multiple dispensations. When you look back at Isaiah 42 you see there is no distinction between different 'Gospels' or dispensations. It is actually quoted in Matthew, about Jesus and the Gentiles, long before Paul comes into the picture.

Matthew 12:18 (ESV)
"Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

I guess it comes down to what you consider the body of Christ? I would assume most believe it is those with faith in Christ? If you read through most Bibles with references, they will show you how they relate back to OT passages.

Paul gives a very broad, but specific reference, himself.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (ESV) 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

I only quote the one verse to show the specific information, but the context was most of the book of Exodus plus some. I have no doubt that this is a great deal of what is talked about when Acts talks about "Moses".

I don't think your gonna have plain verses in the OT that say what you want. If that were so, then the OT Prophets would have realized.

However, what you have, is Paul making numerous references(seen by using a good cross reference Bible) to the OT in his teaching.

If you hold to, without wanting to understand different, that there are multiple dispensations with different ways God deals with His people, you will never understand. No offense intended, but indoctrination is not called such because it is something people easily disregard.

Look back at Acts 28;

From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God ...Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen."

Same thing that was preached to the Jews 'first', was also preached to the Gentiles. Paul was not clearing up ignorance, he was expounding and explains the depth of what was written by Moses and the Prophets. The same Moses and Prophets who were serving us by their obedience to God by writing His words.

1 Peter 1:12 (ESV) 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

It does not get much clearer than that.

 

[eddif]

The sower of seeds was present when seeds were designed. Pretty much hidden fir a long time.

The Law kept things in order till Christ was revealed.

All the scriptures became Jesus. The traditions of man resisted the scriptures.

The sufferings of the prophets words were poured out on Jesus. Our sins were born by Jesus. I Peter 2:24

The prophets spoke of the word being placed in hearts and mind (the same prophets telling of the destruction of Jerusalem).

The second Adam (the Adam of the born again man) became the quickining spirit that placed the kingdom inside us (heart and mind).

The mysteries of the seed were there from before the foundations of the earth.

The New Jerusalem is in us, if we opened the door. Revelation 3:20

eddif