The problem is that the charge of my not understanding grammar wasn't explained. Just a claim made.
Please explain how I don't understand the grammar, if I don't. Don't just throw claims around.
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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
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Please explain how I don't understand the grammar, if I don't. Don't just throw claims around.
chessman
Member
This Text says Jesus Christ (Messiah) gives them eternal life. Some believe it, some do not. I happen to believe Him.
John 10:24-28 LEB So the Jews surrounded him and began to say to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly!” Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep! My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will…
No.
John 10:30 "The Father and I are one.”
To be in Christ Jesus' hand was then and is now, to be in The Father's hand. This is why they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy. He was claiming to be God. Yet they didn't believe Him. Why??? precisely because they did not have the Spirit of truth.
John 16:13
But when he—the Spirit of truth—comes, he will guide you into all the truth. For he will not speak from himself, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will proclaim to you the things to come.
But when he—the Spirit of truth—comes, he will guide you into all the truth. For he will not speak from himself, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will proclaim to you the things to come.
Well, I'm sorry that Scripture would tire one so. It doesn't tire me at all. In fact, Eph 1:13,14, along with 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 are quite exciting because they teach eternal security. And that gives me great confidence.
Now I'll confess what tires me sooooo. Trying to compare a physical seal that is put on pieces of paper with the Holy Spirit Himself, who is a seal on God's own possession. There is no comparison.
This is totally unrelated to the sealing with the Holy Spirit.
"be able to..."?? When a person is saved, they are saved completely.
Heb 7:25 - Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Jesus also said that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28. That is plain language for eternal security.
My question for you is this: where is any Scripture that addresses the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit and teaches that God will break that seal, or undo that seal, or un-seal that seal? Where?
Does the Holy Spirit leave the believer when they sin? Of course not. But when we do sin, we grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).
This speaks of loss of reward in heaven for "not walking worthy".
Yet, 2 Tim 2:13 says that even if we are unfaithful, He remains faithful. And the Holy Spirit indwells us forever.
Nathan
Member
No offense, but you seem to be dodging the question. I am only trying to figure out your stance on it because at first you seemed to say that Jesus gave eternal life to some before they had the Spirit, then you seemed to say that without the Spirit there is no eternal life in a person, and now you seem to be going back to eternal life apart from the Spirit. So your position seems very vague, and I was just trying to understand. If you don't want to be specific, that's fine.
Nathan
Member
When Paul was writing Timothy about what to look for in a overseer, he made a very direct statement - very "plain".
1Ti 3:6
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Pride is a very, VERY, deceitful thing in a persons life. It even can happen in a believers life. It's what led Lucifer to sin against God, and its what satan used to deceive Adam and Eve.
It is also the one thing that leads a person to the only sin that is unforgivable. It should be something we watch out for in our lives. Pride can deceive someone to think they can do something to posses something they actually cannot posses.
Could you explain this a bit further? Are you saying that a babe in Christ(recent convert) or a spiritually immature believer who may become puffed up in a deacons/teachers position is unsealed from the Spirit, condemned by The Lord Jesus Christ and tossed into the eternal lake of fire for ever and ever?
Would you say that it is possible that Paul is talking about divine discipline for the babe in Christ that becomes puffed up? And not eternal torment and being unsealed from the Spirit and that recent convert/babe in Christ is condemned by the Lord Jesus Christ?
Divine discipline~~King James Bible
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1 Cor 5:5~~New American Standard Bible
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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Nathan
Member
I'm not sure how to respond to this, but I will try. I think its quite clear what Paul is saying, unless you believe that the devil is just going to receive some divine discipline?
I am saying that Paul gives a warning, about the potential for a recent convert, to be so overwhelmed with the sin of pride, that they fall into the same condemnation that the devil fell into. There is no other condemnation that I know of for the devil than the lake of fire.
Its a serious warning. Not just something that we should shrug off and make fit a position we hold. Pride is real - I'm just not sure if we actually grasp the seriousness of sin.
I do not think you can use 1 Corinthians 5:5 here at all. Satan was not condemned for the destruction of his flesh, and to be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This is serious stuff. We should take it seriously. Pride is so deceitful, we have got to stay away from it at all costs.
Pro 16:18
Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.
A recent convert is just like a young plant. Very tender and susceptible to the environment around them. They need to be nourished, and built up in the faith, rather than to be put in a position where they looked on as being something they are not yet.
That 'haughtiness' that can come from being put into positions of authority, is the same thing as having an 'elevated viewpoint' of yourself. Paul is warning of the 'puffing up'(think of how leaven makes dough rise), that eventually leads to that pride that brings destruction.
Now, how you can apply 1 Corinthians 5:5 here is if you do happen to give a recent convert a position in which they start to become puffed up, you should immediately 'stomp' on that dough that's rising - so that there is a chance he may be saved and not become full of pride - receiving the condemnation of the devil.
Its better to not appoint them in the first place, because if you have to remove a body part in that manner its going to cause pain and anguish through out the whole body. Its better if that body part is cut off though, so the whole body will not become infected.
1 Tim 3:6 is not saying that a child of God who becomes puffed up is going to receive the same condemnation as the false accuser/devil.
Paul is saying the recent convert/babe in Christ may fall among/fall into the hands/condemnation of the false accuser/devil.
And the Lord has given the false accuser the power to destroy our flesh if we stay out of Gods will for our lives. So , 1 Cor 5:5 is very relevant to what Paul is describing in 1 Tim 3:6.
If we become puffed up in a position of authority(they are held to a HIGH standard) in the Church, we may fall into the hands of the accuser and have our flesh destroyed by him. But our Spirit is saved because we are forever sealed by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV 1900)
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
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chessman
Member
No dogging here.
When you do not refer to a passage of Scripture in your questioning posts, it is not Theology (no offense). If you would at least reference a passage of Scripture along with your questions, your questions would be less theologically vague (no offense).
For example, when you asked in reference to John 5:21 the following:
it is not a theological question with respect to that chapter's Text. Jesus wasn't even talking to His disciples then. Nor was He talking about the Spirit. I answered your question anyway, though.
Similarly, when you ask:
without reference to a passage's context, it is not really a theological question.
I can say with assurance however that the Son makes alive whomever He wishes for the Son has life in Himself. Just as the Father does. Just as the Spirit does. And no, the Son does not act independently from the Father or the Spirit.
John 5:21, 24, 26-27, 39-40 For just as the Father raises the dead and makes them alive, thus also the Son makes alive whomever he wishes.
...Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. For just as the Father has life in himself, thus also he has granted to the Son to have life in himself. And he has granted him authority to carry out judgment, because he is the Son of Man. You search the scriptures because you think that you have eternal life in them, and it is these that testify about me. And you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.
The Jews He was speaking to in John 5, were not willing to come to Him so that they may have life. Nor did they have the Spirit, so it's no wonder they were not willing.
Nathan
Member
Number one, the devil cannot condemn a believer. So there is NO way that is what Paul is saying.
Rom 8:33-34
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Number two, its wise to view multiple translations - if you are not going to look into the original language - in order to say that something means something other than what it plainly states.
NKJV
not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
The 'judgement' is not something that the devil can impose on anyone. In the language, it is used to describe that which the devil has/will receive. The one that becomes puffed up, who then gives himself over to pride, will then receive the same judgement that the devil is going to receive for his pride.
We cannot be taken plucked from God's hand......remember....... Therefore, satan has no power to take us into his hands - unless we are out of the hands of God. I assure you, God will not share us with the devil.
2Ti 3:1-9
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
Nathan
Member
I honestly was not asking in reference to any passages - I was asking in reference to your statements. That's why I was not quoting passages. I am asking you a question based on your statements, not Biblical passages.
I was asking you a simple yes/no question. If someone was to ask me, "Nathan, do you believe that a person can have eternal life without the Spirit in them?" I would say "NO", it is impossible.
I just thought you could say 'no' or 'yes'. Reason being, in some of your posts you 'seem' to be saying yes, and in other posts you 'seem' to be saying no. I was just wanting clarification in my mind so I could understand where you are coming from.
1 Cor 5:5~~New American Standard Bible
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Yes, he/satan most certainly can condemn a believer..............physically. satan most certainly cannot pluck us from Gods hand and condemn us spiritually/eternally. We are forever sealed/saved spiritually by the Spirit. Eph 4:30.
His word clearly says that satan can condemn/destroy our flesh in this world/in time. The words 'destroy','condemn','fire','burned' and the like, always need to be considered in their proper context and often mean something in the physical realm or fleshly realm. And not all entirely in the eternal realm.
Nathan
Member
I seriously do not know what to think. You are inserting words into a passage that simply does not have any place there - they are not found there. Why would you add them into it?
1 Corinthians 5:5 says NOTHING about satan condemning us. On the other hand, we know that there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ - yet you say there is????????
Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
The original lie of satan was that man would not die - that God's word does not mean what it says.
1Ti 3:6
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
You say that this "condemnation" does not mean spiritual, yet we know that the devils condemnation is not physical. He is not a physical being. Therefore, his condemnation cannot be physical. We should not try to rewrite what the letters of Paul state.
Fellowship means companionship, camaraderie, a friendly association, brotherhood. There's nothing in the prodigal son parable that speaks of fellowship.
Define irrevocable.
It's not the gifts that are irrevocable. It's the call of God that is irrevocable. The gifts are associated with the call ie. to those who he calls, he gives them gifts.
RE. works. The old covenant was about punishment; every jot of the law was a work you had to do.
The new covenant is about forgiveness - forgive those who trespass against you. On the other hand, if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. Show mercy, receive mercy. Love, be loved. Give, you will receive. Lose in this world, gain in the next world. Do unto others, God will do to you. Keep his word. Store up his word. Seek. Grow in the knowledge of God. Forgive, God will forgive. Judge, you will be judged. Do not judge, you won't be judged. Mt. 7:2 Pray, you will be heard.
We don't do these things because we're good. God alone is good. Luke 18:19 We do them so we won't be destroyed in hell. Pr. 4 Hear, O sons, a father’s instruction,
and be attentive, that you may gain insight;
2 for I give you good precepts:
do not forsake my teaching.
We are trying to save men from the wrath of God.
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Lets go back a bit OK? You used 1 Tim 3:6 to prove that a believer can be unsealed from the Spirit. Where are the words "unsealed" or "break that seal, or undo that seal, or un-seal that seal" in 1 Tim 3:6?
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Nathan
Member
Ok, we can back up.
I did not use the term "unsealed".
The "seal" of God is His authoritative acknowledgement of His promise to us. This 'seal' is His Spirit in us. If we do not have the Spirit, then the 'seal' is not valid - its not that its "unsealed", it just simply is not existent.
Again, the 'seal' is the Spirit. A person without the Spirit does not have the 'seal'.
Thanks.
So, the recent convert who does fall into the trap to teach when he is not mature enough, And does become puffed up, never really had been sealed by/with the Spirit?
It seemed you were trying to use 1 Tim 3:6 to say that the recent convert was sealed then may lose that seal/Spirit if they become puffed up in a position of authority.
Nathan
Member
A person who 'converts' is a person who has been given the Spirit. If a person has the Spirit, then that means they have the seal of God.
I was stating that if a person becomes puffed up, then that sin of pride can lead someone to fall away from Christ. If you turn from the faith, then you turn from God and His Spirit. This is the same sin that turned Lucifer away from God, and gave him the condemnation. They don't 'lose' the seal as in by accidentally misplacing it, they chose to reject it because of the pride in them.
Paul refers to this turning from faith, and turning to satan later on in the letter when talking about young widows.
1Ti 5:11-15
But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander. For some have already strayed after Satan.
So they are sealed. I agree.
And in your opinion 1 Tim 3:6 is a plain verse that shows believer's can lose/reject this seal?
So a younger widow who has believed and is sealed with the Spirit, then later has passion for a spouse and marriage that draws them away from Christ, will incur the same condemnation as the devil, which is eternal torment in the LoF and being unsealed from The Spirit?
Is this just for the widows that were enrolled and then were drawn away from Christ? Or is it for me and you also? If we believed in Christ then set our passions on our spouse and Children above the Lord.........we can expect the same condemnation as the devil?
New American Standard Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.