Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

Where does this "death" discipline come from? You keep throwing this around and I've never seen anything thing that says this?

From the Bible, of course.
1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

The use of "sleep" is often used as a euphemism for physical death. Jesus used it that way in regard to Lazarus in John 11. And His disciples didn't understand Him.

I think you answer your own question with this idea of some sort of death discipline. A person cannot submit to His discipline once they die.

Oh, there's another verse on God's discipline including death. 1 John 5:16 - If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

If one is interested in examples of God's discipline that includes physical death, consider:
1 Cor 10:5 - If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.
1 Cor 10:8 - We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
1 Cor 9,10 - We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

Also, 1 Cor 5:5 and Acts 5

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"It's both. Paul said so in plain language.
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." Rom 11:29"

Why even mention the call of God if the call of God is not related to the gifts? He calls. He gives life.

It doesn't matter whether they are related or not. The point is that Paul noted 2 things that are irrevocable.

What sense does it make to say a gift can be undone? How do you 'do' or 'undo' a gift?

The Bible never says anything about the gift of eternal life being undone. It says that eternal life is irrevocable.

I use the word "undone" to show the silliness of the claim that salvation can be lost. That would be tantamount to saying that salvation can be undone. Or the seal can be undone.

God is the One who saves us. He does it. What he does cannot be undone.

I hope this clarifies.

 

[FreeGrace]

MarkT said: ↑
How do you 'do' or 'undo' a gift?

You throw it in the trash.

How does that answer relate in any way to the gift of eternal life?

Is there any example in Scripture of such a thing?

 

[FreeGrace]

Why did Paul use the word "died" here and not "sleep"?

Please read John 11 about the physical death of Lazarus and ask why Jesus used the word "sleep". Sheesh.

 

[Nathan]

From the Bible, of course.
1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

The use of "sleep" is often used as a euphemism for physical death. Jesus used it that way in regard to Lazarus in John 11. And His disciples didn't understand Him.


Oh, there's another verse on God's discipline including death. 1 John 5:16 - If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

If one is interested in examples of God's discipline that includes physical death, consider:
1 Cor 10:5 - If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.
1 Cor 10:8 - We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
1 Cor 9,10 - We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

Also, 1 Cor 5:5 and Acts 5

Death is not discipline. Discipline is defined very clearly in the Bible.

paideúō, pahee-dyoo'-o; from G3816; to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by implication), discipline (by punishment):—chasten(-ise), instruct, learn, teach.

You do not teach someone something by removing them from the situation. You cannot just say that death is a form of discipline in order to make it fit your doctrine. That's not truth.

1 John 5:16 does not speak about 'sleep' death. It actually refers to "death".

thánatos, than'-at-os; from G2348; (properly, an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively):—X deadly, (be…) death.

This is different than the word used for 'sleep'.

koimáō, koy-mah'-o; from G2749; to put to sleep, i.e. (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively, to decease:—(be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.


1Jo 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death[thanatos]; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

This is death without life. There is sin that leads to it, the wise will understand this and take it to heart. The foolish will disregard it and put it off.

Jer 5:1-5
Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem,
look and take note!
Search her squares to see
if you can find a man,
one who does justice
and seeks truth,
that I may pardon her.
Though they say, “As the LORD lives,”
yet they swear falsely.
O LORD, do not your eyes look for truth?
You have struck them down,
but they felt no anguish;
you have consumed them,
but they refused to take correction.
They have made their faces harder than rock;
they have refused to repent.

Then I said, “These are only the poor;
they have no sense;
for they do not know the way of the LORD,
the justice of their God.
I will go to the great
and will speak to them,
for they know the way of the LORD,
the justice of their God.”
But they all alike had broken the yoke;
they had burst the bonds.

Jer 5:20-31
Declare this in the house of Jacob;
proclaim it in Judah:
“Hear this, O foolish and senseless people,
who have eyes, but see not,
who have ears, but hear not.
Do you not fear me? declares the LORD.
Do you not tremble before me?
I placed the sand as the boundary for the sea,
a perpetual barrier that it cannot pass;
though the waves toss, they cannot prevail;
though they roar, they cannot pass over it.
But this people has a stubborn and rebellious heart;
they have turned aside and gone away.
They do not say in their hearts,
‘Let us fear the LORD our God,
who gives the rain in its season,
the autumn rain and the spring rain,
and keeps for us
the weeks appointed for the harvest.’
Your iniquities have turned these away,
and your sins have kept good from you.
For wicked men are found among my people;
they lurk like fowlers lying in wait.
They set a trap;
they catch men.
Like a cage full of birds,
their houses are full of deceit;
therefore they have become great and rich;
they have grown fat and sleek.
They know no bounds in deeds of evil;
they judge not with justice
the cause of the fatherless, to make it prosper,
and they do not defend the rights of the needy.
Shall I not punish them for these things?
declares the LORD,
and shall I not avenge myself
on a nation such as this?”

An appalling and horrible thing
has happened in the land:
the prophets prophesy falsely,
and the priests rule at their direction;
my people love to have it so,
but what will you do when the end comes?

 

[FreeGrace]

Death is not discipline.

So you say. I gave clear examples of physical death for sin. But I can't make anyone read the verses.

You do not teach someone something by removing them from the situation.

God does remove humans from earth because of sin. The examples in the Bible prove it.

You cannot just say that death is a form of discipline in order to make it fit your doctrine. That's not truth.

The examples prove that death can be a part of God's discipline. Along with "weakness and sickness" in 1 Cor 11:30.

1 John 5:16 does not speak about 'sleep' death. It actually refers to "death".

Huh? Yes, physical death is one result of sinning.

None of the passages quoted refutes the examples that have been given to show that God does take sinful believers home.

 

[Nathan]

So you say. I gave clear examples of physical death for sin. But I can't make anyone read the verses.


God does remove humans from earth because of sin. The examples in the Bible prove it.


The examples prove that death can be a part of God's discipline. Along with "weakness and sickness" in 1 Cor 11:30.


Huh? Yes, physical death is one result of sinning.

None of the passages quoted refutes the examples that have been given to show that God does take sinful believers home.

God destroys people because of sin. There is a HUGE difference between being removed from the earth, and being destroyed. There have been many people who have been 'removed' from the earth, and even a couple who were done so not because of sin. Yes, physical death is a result of sin - and so is spiritual death.

1 Corinthians 11:30 does not say that death is a form of discipline. Why? Because, the definition of discipline does not support the idea of death. Its 'impossible'. You cannot discipline something that has no life.

If you don't think there are passages to refute that God takes sinful people to heaven, I am not sure what to say.

Psa 37:9
For the evildoers shall be cut off,
but those who wait for the LORD shall inherit the land.

1Co 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There are no passages that state God kills someone in order to discipline them. It will be a relief to be at home with God - only people who have more desire for the world think it will be disciplinary action to be taken from it.

 

[FreeGrace]

God destroys people because of sin.

What that be just the people that Christ didn't die for??

There is a HUGE difference between being removed from the earth, and being destroyed. There have been many people who have been 'removed' from the earth, and even a couple who were done so not because of sin. Yes, physical death is a result of sin - and so is spiritual death.

At least this is an admission that God does use physical death in the case of sin. Thank you for noticing.

1 Corinthians 11:30 does not say that death is a form of discipline. Why?

The context is really clear. It was weakness, sicknesss and death for those who abused the Lord's Table. But anyone is free to describe it any way they want to.

Because, the definition of discipline does not support the idea of death. Its 'impossible'. You cannot discipline something that has no life.

This is only the short view. By removing the person, they have no more opportunity to earn rewards.

If you don't think there are passages to refute that God takes sinful people to heaven, I am not sure what to say.

Is this an insinuation that only sinless people go to heaven then?? Apparently such a view is ignorant of these verses:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God.

Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

 

[Nathan]

All sin causes death. That's not the issue at hand. It's the false idea that discipline is used in death. To take a person from the issue they need to be disciplined in, to a place that is free from the need of discipline - is by very definition not discipline.

Earning rewards is a construct of the human mind. Not receiving a reward is a result of disobedience, not a form of discipline. Discipline is used only to create a change in someone. Your trying to use it as a form of punishment. Discipline and punishment are different things.

Only sinless people do go to heaven. God does not allow sinful man in heaven. God is Holy.

Revelation 21
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

 

[Jim Parker]

First, the Bible never describes anyone divorcing themself from Christ. The word is "sever".

sigh What do you think divorce does? It "severs" a relationship.

Second, in God's economy, there is no divorce. Jesus said so in a conversation with Pharisees about it in Mark 10.

He was talking about husbands and wives ONLY.

Biblical language uses 2 PERMANENT relationships in describing the relationship between God and believer and Christ and believer.
1. parent - child. God the Father and His children
2. marriage. Christ the Bridegroom and the Bride
These relationships are permanent in God's economy.

Sure. AFTER Christ's return but not before.

 

[FreeGrace]

All sin causes death.

That's NOT what the LORD told Adam and the woman in Gen 2:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Now combine this with Rom 5:12 - 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— and v.14 - 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

That's not the issue at hand. It's the false idea that discipline is used in death.

Is this a suggestion that Paul was in error in 1 Cor 11:30, or chapter 10:
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.

This is referring to their physical deaths. So what should one call it when people physically die as a result of sin?

Oh, and let's not forget what happened to King Saul in 1 Sam 31:
4 Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me.” But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it.
5 When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died with him.

However, this is the summary of Saul's end:

1 Chron 10:
13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,
14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

Still want to argue that physical death isn't part of God's discipline?

To take a person from the issue they need to be disciplined in, to a place that is free from the need of discipline - is by very definition not discipline.

Some failed believers are just taken home. Period.

Earning rewards is a construct of the human mind.

Never mind the extent of biblical teaching on reward based on obedience and faithfulness then.

Only sinless people do go to heaven.

Well then, that would mean no one will ever go to heaven. But this is what the Bible says about that in Rom 3:
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

and, in 1 John 1:
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

God does not allow sinful man in heaven. God is Holy.

Then Jesus would have a problem returning back to heaven:
2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Revelation 21
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Is your view that v.8 is a list of specific sins that Christ did not die for??

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"First, the Bible never describes anyone divorcing themself from Christ. The word is "sever"."

sigh What do you think divorce does? It "severs" a relationship.
My turn to sigh. It seems my point was completely missed. In God's economy, divorce was not an option. I quoted Jesus on the subject in Mark 10.

He was talking about husbands and wives ONLY.

Again, my point was missed completely. The Bible uses language that parallels spiritual principles. Whether we use the parent-child relationship, which is permanent, or the husband-wife relationship, which IN GOD'S EYES is permanent, our relationship with God is permanent, since the Bible uses both the parent-child and husband-wife terminology to describe our relationship with Him.

 

[Jim Parker]

How does that answer relate in any way to the gift of eternal life?

sigh
You "throw away" the gift of eternal life by rejecting it and walking away to do your own thing.

Is there any example in Scripture of such a thing?

Again!!????
You need to be shown AGAIN!!???

Heb 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

That says that those who have been "saved" (enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, tasted the word of God and the powers of the age to come) can "fall away."

Heb 6:7-8 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God: but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

That compares those who have "fallen away" to fields that do not produce fruit unto salvation.
They end up being burned.
Being burned is a metaphor for getting sent to hell.

 

[Jim Parker]

I said this:
"First, the Bible never describes anyone divorcing themself from Christ. The word is "sever"."
The Bible uses language that parallels spiritual principles. Whether we use the parent-child relationship, which is permanent, or the husband-wife relationship, which IN GOD'S EYES is permanent, our relationship with God is permanent, since the Bible uses both the parent-child and husband-wife terminology to describe our relationship with Him.

And the REALITY is that people continue to divorce.
The REALITY is that people sever, abandon, turn away from, their union with Christ.

1Jo 5:1a Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God,

Those who do not believe are, therefore, not children of God.
And those who no longer believe are no longer children of God.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

And what is the "beginning" to which Peter refers? It is the state of being unsaved and separated from Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

"It's both. Paul said so in plain language.
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." Rom 11:29"

And in Romans 11, Paul was specifically talking about the eternal condition of Israel and only of Israel.
He was saying absolutely NOTHING about OSAS.
You are misappropriating scripture which says nothing about OSAS in order to support your view.
By so doing, you do violence to the scripture by trying to force them to say what they do not at all say.

 

[Nathan]

That's NOT what the LORD told Adam and the woman in Gen 2:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Now combine this with Rom 5:12 - 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— and v.14 - 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.


Is this a suggestion that Paul was in error in 1 Cor 11:30, or chapter 10:
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.

This is referring to their physical deaths. So what should one call it when people physically die as a result of sin?

Oh, and let's not forget what happened to King Saul in 1 Sam 31:
4 Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me.” But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it.
5 When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died with him.

However, this is the summary of Saul's end:

1 Chron 10:
13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,
14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

Still want to argue that physical death isn't part of God's discipline?


Some failed believers are just taken home. Period.


Never mind the extent of biblical teaching on reward based on obedience and faithfulness then.


Well then, that would mean no one will ever go to heaven. But this is what the Bible says about that in Rom 3:
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

and, in 1 John 1:
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.


Then Jesus would have a problem returning back to heaven:
2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


Is your view that v.8 is a list of specific sins that Christ did not die for??

How do you reckon that Romans 5 says that all sin does not cause death?

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

Yes I still want to help you see that death is not discipline. It is punishment. Death is not used to correct a persons actions - it is used to stop them. Saul was 'killed' to stop him, not correct him. Go back and look at the definition of discipline.

Physical death as a result of sin is called the 'Adamic curse'. Through Adam death came into the world because of sin, and because all sin, all will die - physically - because of sin. Where there is no sin, there is no death.

Ok, we need to figure something out here. Do you believe that Christ is still with sin? Because you said that "Then Jesus would have a problem returning back to heaven" in response to my statement "God does not allow sinful man in heaven. God is Holy."

Once Christ died for sins the payment has been made. There is no more sin for those who are in Christ. Christ does NOT have sin in him right now.

1Jo 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Maybe things will start to come together for you now. See, in Christ we are free from sin. His blood cleanses us from all sin. If we are apart from Christ, not walking in the light as He is in the light, then our sin remains - and we will be judged on it. When we walk in the light, with Him, He cleanses us from the sin that occurs in our life.

That is why we are disciplined. It is to correct our 'way', to get us back in the light. If a person dies in their sin, then there is nothing they could have done to earn salvation. It is only in Christ that His blood is applied to us.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

[chessman]

...death is not discipline. It is punishment.

Discipline includes punishment per the very definition of the word used in Heb 12. If death is punishment (per your own admission above), then discipline includes death. Poof!

3811 paideúō (from 3816 /país, "a child under development with strict training") – properly, to train up a child (3816 /país), so they mature and realize their full potential (development). This requires necessary discipline (training), which includes administering chastisement (punishment).

3811 /paideúō ("to instruct by training") is the root of the English terms, "pedagogue, pedagogy."

[Our English word "chasten" comes from "Latin castus, pure, chaste, and means to purify, cf. Heb 12:6f" (WP, 2, 282). See the root 3816 (pais, "a child under strict instruction").]

http://biblehub.com/greek/3811.htm

 

[Nathan]

Discipline includes punishment per the very definition of the word used in Heb 12. If death is punishment (per your own admission above), then discipline includes death. Poof!

3811 paideúō (from 3816 /país, "a child under development with strict training") – properly, to train up a child (3816 /país), so they mature and realize their full potential (development). This requires necessary discipline (training), which includes administering chastisement (punishment).

3811 /paideúō ("to instruct by training") is the root of the English terms, "pedagogue, pedagogy."

[Our English word "chasten" comes from "Latin castus, pure, chaste, and means to purify, cf. Heb 12:6f" (WP, 2, 282). See the root 3816 (pais, "a child under strict instruction").]

http://biblehub.com/greek/3811.htm

Here we go into a word debate again.......

Punishment that is a result of discipline, is a different type of punishment that does not return any training.

In other words, we 'spank' our kids (punishment) in order to bring about a change in their behavior. We also punish criminals with the death penalty - that does not bring about a change in their behavior.

Heb 10:29
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

This 'punishment' is WAY different than a punishment that comes from discipline.

 

[FreeGrace]

sigh
You "throw away" the gift of eternal life by rejecting it and walking away to do your own thing.

Sigh. Just show me the verse, if that's true.

I said this:
"Is there any example in Scripture of such a thing?"

Again!!????
You need to be shown AGAIN!!???

Sigh. No. For the first time.

Heb 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


That says that those who have been "saved" (enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, tasted the word of God and the powers of the age to come) can "fall away."

Why, yes it does! So, where does "fall away" mean loss of salvation? Isn't that just an assumption.

Jesus used that description of one who "believed for a while and then fell away". Isn't it obvious that by 'fell away' He was simply noting what he fell away from? Which is believing. There's no way to arrive at "fell away from salvation" in Luke 8:13 without assumption.

Heb 6:7-8 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God: but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

That compares those who have "fallen away" to fields that do not produce fruit unto salvation.
They end up being burned.
Being burned is a metaphor for getting sent to hell.

This is not been proved. In fact, it has been shown that "burn" and "fire" is frequently used to denote judgment without the lake of fire being in view.

But, here's a verse that speaks of being burned yet being saved all in the same context in 1 Cor 3:
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[FreeGrace]

And the REALITY is that people continue to divorce.

So does this mean that Jesus really wasn't focused on reality in Mark 10?

The REALITY is that people sever, abandon, turn away from, their union with Christ.

Nope. Not one verse about undoing their union with Christ. In fact, Eph 1:13,14 says this seal is a deposit which guarantees the inheritance of God's possession for the day of redemption.

So, please explain how that doesn't mean eternal security.

1Jo 5:1a Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God,

Those who do not believe are, therefore, not children of God.
And those who no longer believe are no longer children of God.

Just more assumption, all without any evidence from Scripture.

But, since "children of God" is noted, please answer this question:
Can a child undo their birth in any way so that they are no longer the child of their parents?

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

And what is the "beginning" to which Peter refers? It is the state of being unsaved and separated from Christ.

Please explain why "the latter end is worse" cannot refer to "the rest of their lives", rather than "in eternity", which is an assumption.