salvation and the loss of it

[Not_Now.Soon]

You guys might have already discussed this but doesn't John 15:1-17 sound like it deals with possibly being removed?

 

[Nathan]

That's NOT what He promised in John 10:28. He promised RECIPIENTS of eternal life that they will never perish.

Please don't try to change what He promised.


John 10:28 is a promise of eternal security. All recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Please notice Jesus gave no conditions to recipients. Just the plain fact of receiving eternal life results in never perishing.

So, once saved, always saved. Period.

All in Christ will not perish. You will never find one passage that states you can be outside of Christ and not perish. If you leave His fold you will perish. He promised eternal life to the sheep who are in His fold.

Revelation 21
7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Only in Christ, through faith, will we not perish in the second death.

 

[Gregg T]

Judas. God chose him, gave him to Christ, and Judas chose to betray Jesus - Jesus let him, and it was a fulfillment of prophesy.

While it's nice to take things like no man 'snatching' us out of His hand literal, that's not the way it was intended to be read. It is a statement of God not allowing us to be unknowingly taken away from Him - it's saying we cannot be stolen, taken by force.

It's a description of ownership, not of control. If it was a description of control, then we would alway do what He wants. We don't, so we know it's not a description of control.

Matthew 24
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

I was addressing God's willingness to let go, and His unproven though often insinuated letting go of those that belong to Him.

 

[WIP]

reba said: ↑
Can we jump out of His hand ? Leaving on our own is not being 'plucked'

This is a very serious issue. If one can "leave on their own", that would mean that they are more powerful than God. For it is God who saves us, and holds us in His hand. Since Jesus made the point twice that no one is able to snatch a recipient of eternal life out of either His or His Father's hand, that has to include the recipient as well. Because "no one" means "no person", and probably even includes the idea of "no entities", such as fallen angels.

If a recipient of eternal life could leave on their own, and ultimately perish, what does that do to Jesus' promise that recipients of eternal life will never perish? It would make His promise untrue.

I continue to wonder why anyone would argue for such a conclusion.

If God didn't allow us to leave when it is our desire, wouldn't forcing us to stay be a form of hell both here on earth having the knowledge that He will not let us go and in the afterlife?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"The Bible only uses the term "unbeliever" for one who has never believed."

What scripture says that ?

It doesn't have to. If ceasing to believe results in the "former believer" back to the same status as one who never believed, as in "unbeliever", then the Bible would have actually addressed that.

But, the real question is how Jesus could be right in what He promised recipients of eternawl life IF a former believer (recipient of eternal life) actually perish?

Every argument presented for loss of salvation is solved in the promise of Jesus: recipients of eternal life will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus let Judas leave, and Judas leaving was a fulfillment of prophesy.

How is that? Judas fulfilled prophesy by betraying Jesus, not "leaving".

Prophesy is not God deciding what is going to happen - regardless if someone wants to do something. Prophecy is God foretelling what will happen.

I do believe that everyone here agrees.

God allowing something to happen is not the same as Him making it happen.

Who seems to think that?

Judas was chosen by God for Christ. Judas was not chosen to betray Jesus, he simple did it because he turned from Christ.

I hardly know how to respond to this. Of course he was chosen for betrayal.
John 13:11 - For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Acts 1:16 - and said, “Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. Dr Luke refutes your statement.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Sheep are the context.

No, believers are the context. Jesus shepherds people, not sheep. Jesus didn't give eternal life to sheep. He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him. John 5:24

Taking any metaphor too far always results in getting into trouble.

 

[FreeGrace]

You guys might have already discussed this but doesn't John 15:1-17 sound like it deals with possibly being removed?

No. It deals with God's discipline for not producing fruit.

Back in John 10:28 Jesus promises recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. So, how can anyone who has believed be "removed" or perish?

 

[FreeGrace]

All in Christ will not perish.

Let's finish the thought here. All in Christ REMAIN in Him. Because they have been sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:14

You will never find one passage that states you can be outside of Christ and not perish.

It's patently obvious that those who never believed, and therefore, never were IN HIM will perish.

If you leave His fold you will perish.

First, you've not shown any evidence for a sealed and saved person becoming unsealed and unsaved. And back to unregenerate.

He promised eternal life to the sheep who are in His fold.

No, sir! He did NOT. He said, and I quote, "I give THEM eternal life". Whoever the "them" refers to become recipients of eternal life by the fact of His giving it to THEM.

We know who the "THEM" refers to from Jn 5:24 where Jesus said that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. So, from the moment of believing, the believer possesses eternal life, because Jesus gives it to THEM.

And the result of being a recipient of eternal life is that they will never perish.

That's what Jesus actually said. Not what you said He said.

Only in Christ, through faith, will we not perish in the second death.

Let's finish the thought here. Once IN HIM, we are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption.

How is that not about eternal security?

 

[FreeGrace]

If God didn't allow us to leave when it is our desire, wouldn't forcing us to stay be a form of hell both here on earth having the knowledge that He will not let us go and in the afterlife?

For those believers who turn away from the Lord, they WILL face God's promised discipline, which will not be pleasant, but painful. So they will surely suffer here on earth. I wouldn't in any sense compare that to an eternity in the lake of fire.

I'm not sure what the last part of your question means. Could you clarify, please?

 

[reba]

Let's finish the thought here. All in Christ REMAIN in Him. Because they have been sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:14

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[reba]

For those believers who turn away from the Lord, they WILL face God's promised discipline, which will not be pleasant, but painful. So they will surely suffer here on earth. I wouldn't in any sense compare that to an eternity in the lake of fire.

I'm not sure what the last part of your question means. Could you clarify, please?

What scripture says

So they will surely suffer here on earth

 

[reba]

So they will surely suffer here on earth.

Is this then why John was boiled in oil? or Peter crucified. and the Christians in the Sudan are murdered ... Those who died at at stake a few hundred years ago?

 

[FreeGrace]

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

OK, what does "earnest" mean. It means a guarantee or promise. The specific translation wasn't noted, but some have "guarantee".

Regardless, they mean the same. When God promises something, it is definitely a guarantee.

 

[FreeGrace]

What scripture says

I said:
"So they will surely suffer here on earth"

Heb 10:31 - It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is this then why John was boiled in oil? or Peter crucified. and the Christians in the Sudan are murdered ... Those who died at at stake a few hundred years ago?

No. Being martyred for the faith results in great reward in heaven. Pain is pain, but I'd MUCH RATHER have pain that results in MORE REWARD than LOSS OF REWARD. Wouldn't everyone?

This life is full of pain, so said Peter. But I'd rather avoid God's pain of discipline.
1 Peter 4:12-14 - 12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

No. It deals with God's discipline for not producing fruit.

Back in John 10:28 Jesus promises recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. So, how can anyone who has believed be "removed" or perish?

To prune or cleanse sounds like a verse to dicipleship. To cast in to fire sounds like the discription for hell. John 15:1-17 seems to speak about both discipleship and letting go of Jesus.

As for John 10:28, I don't have an answer. There are theological answers pointing to predestination saying those who fall away were never saved to begin with, and if that's the truth, then it can be argued that no one knows their place in salvation untill we die or Jesus returns.

It's not a great answer, but it sl least tries to consider both kinds of verses that offer encouragememt and protection in Jesus's salvation, as well as the verses with stern warning of falling away from Jesus.

 

[reba]

I said:
"So they will surely suffer here on earth"

Heb 10:31 - It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

So there is not a scripture saying what you said..

 

[reba]

No. Being martyred for the faith results in great reward in heaven. Pain is pain, but I'd MUCH RATHER have pain that results in MORE REWARD than LOSS OF REWARD. Wouldn't everyone?

This life is full of pain, so said Peter. But I'd rather avoid God's pain of discipline.
1 Peter 4:12-14 - 12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

This just gets better and better .. been informative , thanks

 

[Nathan]

How is that? Judas fulfilled prophesy by betraying Jesus, not "leaving".


I do believe that everyone here agrees.


Who seems to think that?


I hardly know how to respond to this. Of course he was chosen for betrayal.
John 13:11 - For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Acts 1:16 - and said, “Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. Dr Luke refutes your statement.


No, believers are the context. Jesus shepherds people, not sheep. Jesus didn't give eternal life to sheep. He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him. John 5:24

Taking any metaphor too far always results in getting into trouble.

God did not make Judas betray Jesus. Does it not make anyone who states this fear when they insinuate God makes people sin, or is a stumbling block to them in some way?

Judas betrayed Jesus on his own free will. God knew he would do it and prophesied about it. Judas was one of Gods chosen ones and he turned on Jesus. This is why it is said that it would be better for him if he had not been born.

Sheep are the context of John 10, you can't rewrite the passage just because you don't agree with what it says. Do you not agree because you don't like the way it gives understanding to verse 28 and 29?

 

[Nathan]

Let's finish the thought here. All in Christ REMAIN in Him. Because they have been sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:14


It's patently obvious that those who never believed, and therefore, never were IN HIM will perish.


First, you've not shown any evidence for a sealed and saved person becoming unsealed and unsaved. And back to unregenerate.


No, sir! He did NOT. He said, and I quote, "I give THEM eternal life". Whoever the "them" refers to become recipients of eternal life by the fact of His giving it to THEM.

We know who the "THEM" refers to from Jn 5:24 where Jesus said that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. So, from the moment of believing, the believer possesses eternal life, because Jesus gives it to THEM.

And the result of being a recipient of eternal life is that they will never perish.

That's what Jesus actually said. Not what you said He said.


Let's finish the thought here. Once IN HIM, we are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption.

How is that not about eternal security?

You cannot finish my thoughts. Your ways are not my ways.

Judas was numbered with the disciples, the ones that were called by God to be Christs. He betrayed Christ because he started to become hardened by the decietfulness of sin.

People do the same today. There are those who turn on their Master, denying Him. All because they do not like what the Lord requires and says. Do you like what the Lord requires and says?

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Do you accept or reject that Jesus is speaking of His sheep?