Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

I asked this:
"So then, if this means denying entrance into heaven from one who used to believe, Jesus contradicted Himself. Is that your position??"

When my question is answered first. Which is: is that your position?

It seems you've dodged my question.

First of all I asked you to post a scripture for your claim, whatever claim you intend to prove.

But you did not.

Here is an example of posting a scripture to support your claim.



31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Jesus gathers His people for the Day of Judgement, and grants to the ones on His right, access to the kingdom of God, which is called:

Inherit the Kingdom.

• Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Those of His people on the left hand are denied access to His kingdom, in which they do not inherit the kingdom of God:

Those who do not inherit the kingdom, will hear these awful words.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


All those who are gathered before His throne are His people, His servants who believe He is Lord, but some obeyed Him, while others did not.

Here is the reason, for those who inherit the kingdom:

• Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[Because] for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

These are those of whom Jesus said these words: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

Loving people, is an action, not just words.

Those who abide in love, abide in God.
Those who do not abide in love, abide in death.

whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
1 John 3:14-17



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Is there any Scripture that speaks of His sheep EVER becoming not His sheep?"

Yes, there is.

No, there isn't.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

This is a specific reference to the 12 original disciples. Not everyone who believes. So it's just a huge assumption that Judas ever believed.

Judas Iscariot was one of His sheep

This has never been proven from Scriptures. Only assumption.

otoh, Scripture shows that he NEVER believed:
"64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him." John 6

In the SAME BREATH, Jesus lumps Judas the betrayer with "them which did not believe". He was an unbeliever. Never believed.

 

[reba]

The ONLY WAY one can "leave" Christ is in the sense of fellowship, since believers are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Reads to me that the understanding above adds to Scripture ... Eph quoted above says nothing of fellowship.


This double standard stuff is a bit much if we expect another to post a verse stating something while we ignore the context should it not be the same for all?

 

[MarkT]

I said John 10:28 is not a promise to recipients of eternal life.

Excuse me, but it most assuredly IS. When Jesus said "I give them eternal life" they BECAME RECIPIENTS of eternal life.

It seems that maybe more than one poster here isn't fluent in English. When someone is given something, they BECOME recipients of something. This is so obvious I can't believe I'm having to explain it.

It's not a promise to recipients of eternal life. That would be like promising eternal life to those who already possess eternal life.

John 10:27-29
This is what we learn from these verses:
Jesus said:

"I give believers/My sheep eternal life and they shall never perish." John 10:28

v.28 tells to whom Jesus gives.

v.28 tells us WHAT Jesus gives.

v.28 tells us the RESULT of what Jesus GIVES to WHOM.

Jesus gives to His sheep. These are believers.

Jesus gives eternal life to believers, who are recipients of eternal life.

Recipients of eternal life will never perish.

This isn't even close to arguable. Jesus spoke in plain language here. No metaphors, no figures of speech. Just straight talk about eternal security.

It's a simple fact: His sheep follow him and he gives them eternal life and they will never perish. Jesus is declaring the truth.
Of course He is. Those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Yet, why do some continue to think that some who have received eternal life CAN perish? Why?

John 10:27-29 His sheep hear his voice. He knows his sheep. They follow him. He gives them eternal life. They shall never perish. No one shall snatch them from his hand. The Father has given them to him. The Father is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Why do you keep saying recipients when this is about his sheep? Why did you skip, "they follow me."?

Why do you suppose they follow him? Is it because they have been given eternal life? Or is it because they are his sheep? - They know him. They know his voice.

You're leaving out important facts that affect our understanding.

Does he give them eternal life because they follow him? No. They do follow him. But that's not the reason he gives them eternal life. He gives them eternal life because they are his sheep. Is it because they hear his voice? No. They do hear his voice. But that's not the reason he gives them eternal life. He gives them eternal life because they are his sheep.

Jesus said he is the door of the sheep, not the door of recipients. His sheep enter through him. Jesus said they shall never perish. Why did he say they shall never perish? Is it because they have been given eternal life? Or is it because they are in his hand?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The ONLY WAY one can "leave" Christ is in the sense of fellowship, since believers are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14"

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Reads to me that the understanding above adds to Scripture ... Eph quoted above says nothing of fellowship.

Right. I wasn't suggesting it did. I WAS, however, pointing out that when the Bible speaks of being "severed from Christ" or "leaving Him" or however that may be stated, isn't about reversing the facts of Eph 1:13,14, which some on this thread keep suggesting.

The sealing in Eph 1:13,14 is a guarantee of our inheritance. How is that not about eternal security? No one has even tried to explain what else it could refer to.

This double standard stuff is a bit much if we expect another to post a verse stating something while we ignore the context should it not be the same for all?

I guess the only double standard on this thread is claiming eternal security for "His sheep" but then in the next breath saying that some of "His sheep" can become someone else's sheep, effectively sidestepping what Jesus said in John 10:28.

And the claim violates the TOS, because no verses are provided that speak of any of His sheep becoming someone else's sheep.

 

[WIP]

Looks like some are beginning to stray off topic and throw out accusations. Do we want to continue to allow this thread to remain open? Remember the rules of this forum and this site!

Do not reply to this post.

 

[JLB]

This is a specific reference to the 12 original disciples. Not everyone who believes. So it's just a huge assumption that Judas ever believed.

Then please don't quote anymore scriptures from John, about eternal life being irrevocable because it refers to His 12 disciples and not everyone who believes.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This is a specific reference to the 12 original disciples. Not everyone who believes. So it's just a huge assumption that Judas ever believed."

Then please don't quote anymore scriptures from John, about eternal life being irrevocable because it refers to His 12 disciples and not everyone who believes.

JLB

I do not understand how your request relates to my post. Please clarify.

However, regarding your comment, we know that eternal life is irrevocable because of what Jesus said in John 10 -
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here's what we know from these 2 verses:
Jesus said:

"I give believers/My sheep eternal life and they shall never perish." John 10:28

v.28 tells to whom Jesus gives; His sheep, or believers.

v.28 tells us WHAT Jesus gives; eternal life.

v.28 tells us the RESULT of what Jesus GIVES to WHOM; they will never perish.

Jesus gives to His sheep. These are believers.

Jesus gives eternal life to believers, who are recipients of eternal life.

Recipients of eternal life will never perish. That means all of the recipients of eternal life.

If He meant only "some" of the recipients, or just "many" of the recipients, or "most" of the recipients, then He would have said so. But He didn't say anything about less then ALL of the recipients.

This isn't even close to arguable. Jesus spoke in plain language here. No metaphors, no figures of speech. Just straight talk about eternal security.

Everyone He gives eternal life to will never perish.

How is the gift of eternal life not irrevocable, since all who receive this gift will never perish?

Please explain.

 

[JLB]

I do not understand how your request relates to my post. Please clarify.

However, regarding your comment, we know that eternal life is irrevocable because of what Jesus said in John 10 -
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

You said this refers to the 12 disciples, and not everyone.

This is a specific reference to the 12 original disciples. Not everyone who believes.

JLB

 

[JLB]

If He meant only "some" of the recipients, or just "many" of the recipients, or "most" of the recipients, then He would have said so. But He didn't say anything about less then ALL of the recipients.

This isn't even close to arguable. Jesus spoke in plain language here. No metaphors, no figures of speech. Just straight talk about eternal security.

Everyone He gives eternal life to will never perish.

How is the gift of eternal life not irrevocable, since all who receive this gift will never perish?

Please quote scripture, for what you believe, as no scripture says eternal life is irrevocable.



JLB

 

[Gregg T]

Then please don't quote anymore scriptures from John, about eternal life being irrevocable because it refers to His 12 disciples and not everyone who believes.

JLB

Hooey!

Perhaps to some of His 12 disciples, as all 12 were not always present together?

God does not give one kind of eternal life to His disciples and a different kind to others.

Don't reply without using Scriptures, you say in other posts, but here don' reply from John.

Everlasting life to a non-Hebrew non-disciple in John:
Joh 4:9-14 Then the Samaritan woman said to Him, How do You, being a Jew, ask to drink from me, I being a Samaritan woman? For Jews do not deal with Samaritans . . . but whoever may drink of the water which I will give him will not thirst, never! But the water which I will give to him will become a fountain of water in him, springing up into everlasting life.

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep which are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock, one Shepherd.

Just sayin, and,

Joh 20:30-31 Then truly Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I do not understand how your request relates to my post. Please clarify.

However, regarding your comment, we know that eternal life is irrevocable because of what Jesus said in John 10 -
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

You said this refers to the 12 disciples, and not everyone.

As anyone can plainly see from what I said above, your statement is not true.

If I ever did say what you're claiming, please provide the post # in order to show that your claim is true, because I don't believe it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please quote scripture, for what you believe, as no scripture says eternal life is irrevocable.

I asked this question, which has been ignored:
"How is the gift of eternal life not irrevocable, since all who receive this gift will never perish?"

When this question is answered, I'll provide all the Scripture necessary to prove what I say.

 

[JLB]

I asked this question, which has been ignored:
"How is the gift of eternal life not irrevocable, since all who receive this gift will never perish?"

When this question is answered, I'll provide all the Scripture necessary to prove what I say.

First of all, you need to provide a scripture that teaches us, the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

Then I will answer your question.

The gift from God to mankind is His Son Jesus Christ, who is eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Eternal life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The definition of eternal life is knowing God, and Jesus Christ whom He sent .

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


This is what the scripture says eternal life is; the biblical definition.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"I do not understand how your request relates to my post. Please clarify.

However, regarding your comment, we know that eternal life is irrevocable because of what Jesus said in John 10 -
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

As anyone can plainly see from what I said above, your statement is not true.

If I ever did say what you're claiming, please provide the post # in order to show that your claim is true, because I don't believe it.

There is no mention of eternal life being irrevocable in John 10:27-28

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:26-30

The condition for eternal life is to believe.

Those who believe, are called Sheep:

Those who believe, show that they believe, by hearing His voice, and following Him, in which He knows them; the definition of eternal life.

But, as you said, this pertains to His 12 disciples, and not for all who believe, so why keep applying this scripture to all believers?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hooey!

Perhaps to some of His 12 disciples, as all 12 were not always present together?

God does not give one kind of eternal life to His disciples and a different kind to others.

Don't reply without using Scriptures, you say in other posts, but here don' reply from John.

Brother, I was quoting what "he said" from another post.

He said, that John 10 was referring to His 12 disciples, and not all believers.

In all honesty he is correct. The context is referring to His twelve disciples, however we can apply the principle of what Jesus is saying to ourselves.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Everlasting life to a non-Hebrew non-disciple in John:
Joh 4:9-14 Then the Samaritan woman said to Him, How do You, being a Jew, ask to drink from me, I being a Samaritan woman? For Jews do not deal with Samaritans . . . but whoever may drink of the water which I will give him will not thirst, never! But the water which I will give to him will become a fountain of water in him, springing up into everlasting life.

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep which are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock, one Shepherd.

Just sayin, and,

Joh 20:30-31 Then truly Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Yes, springing up into eternal life, which denotes a process.

Did you notice the condition?

Ask of Me...10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” John 4:10

Wouldn't a person have to believe before they ask of Him for living water?


Do you ask Him for living water, believing; Do you ask Him in faith?

The point: He said ask and you shall receive. First we must believe Him, then we are to ask Him.

• Believe is the condition for receiving eternal life!

Jesus said of this water:

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep which are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock, one Shepherd.

Good point. This proves the context of John 10 27-28 is a reference to His 12 disciples.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this question, which has been ignored:
"How is the gift of eternal life not irrevocable, since all who receive this gift will never perish?"

When this question is answered, I'll provide all the Scripture necessary to prove what I say.

First of all, you need to provide a scripture that teaches us, the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

Then I will answer your question.

Nope. I asked first. When my question is answered, then I will answer any of your questions and provide all the Scripture necessary to prove that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

But, then again, I've already done that. And it's clear it has been rejected. Oh, well.

The gift from God to mankind is His Son Jesus Christ, who is eternal life.

How does this disprove my statement?

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Bingo! "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus". Now read Rom 11:29 to learn that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Eternal life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The definition of eternal life is knowing God, and Jesus Christ whom He sent .

OK. Jesus said "I give them eternal life". Does Jesus EVER give eternal life to unbelievers? No. So, ALL those He does give eternal life will never perish.

Which refutes any claim that a saved person can perish (lose their salvation).

 

[JLB]

I asked this question, which has been ignored:
"How is the gift of eternal life not irrevocable, since all who receive this gift will never perish?"

When this question is answered, I'll provide all the Scripture necessary to prove what I say.

Nope. I asked first. When my question is answered, then I will answer any of your questions and provide all the Scripture necessary to prove that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

But, then again, I've already done that. And it's clear it has been rejected. Oh, well.


How does this disprove my statement?


Bingo! "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus". Now read Rom 11:29 to learn that God's gifts are irrevocable.


OK. Jesus said "I give them eternal life". Does Jesus EVER give eternal life to unbelievers? No. So, ALL those He does give eternal life will never perish.

Which refutes any claim that a saved person can perish (lose their salvation).

Since you have no scripture that teaches us the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, then I won't answer, because, the answer is: There is no scripture that teaches us the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.


The burden is on you, not me, to provide scripture for what you are teaching.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no mention of eternal life being irrevocable in John 10:27-28

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:26-30

I believe that any truly open minded and reasonable person can see that when Jesus said "they shall never perish" regarding those He gives eternal life, He was indicating that because of receiving the gift of eternal life, never perishing is just another way of saying it's irrevocable. But anyone may see it differently. But that doesn't justify their error.

The condition for eternal life is to believe.

Those who believe HAVE eternal life, so said Jesus: John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

clear.as.day.

Those who believe, are called Sheep:

Better than that. Those who believe are given eternal life and SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

clear.as.day. A saved person SHALL NEVER PERISH. Period.

Those who believe, show that they believe, by hearing His voice, and following Him, in which He knows them; the definition of eternal life.

And they SHALL NEVER PERISH. No such thing as losing salvation, for ANY reason. Jesus doen't permit such a view.

But, as you said, this pertains to His 12 disciples, and not for all who believe, so why keep applying this scripture to all believers?

JLB

I never did, and when challenged for proof, where is it?

As usual, no evidence for your claims.